[van-discuss] Apology to the list

[Geordie Birch]

I would like to apologize to the list members for recent outbursts of
hostility.  These days I am having trouble separating anger from simple 
disagreement.  I am going to unsubscribe from this list for a while 
since I actually do not wish to make this an unpleasant place for others.

Geordie.


On Mon, Jun 02, 2003 at 06:47:51AM -0400, Geordie Birch wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 01, 2003 at 06:36:15PM -0700, Marjorie Brown wrote:
> > Sheesh Geordie, watch your communication style.  If we want to get all
> > holier than thou about revolutionary credentials and revolutionary lives
> > let's talk about the way men flame debates on lists and why women
> > therefore rarely take part in them.
> > 
> > If you have something to say about my post, go nuts - but can the cheap
> > shots.  Do you think you will convince me of anything that way? And do you
> > think the left will convince anyone else if that's how we communicate?
> 
> I don't really care about revolutionary credentials.  I'll certainly
> refer to my own experiences and opinions however.   And I have trouble
> relating to people with more than one of the following:  Relatively 
> new/expensive: cars/cloths/digs/computers/bicycles/educations.  And Union 
> jobs, as many of these are relatively stable and high paying, and 
> although I am asked on a regular basis to back up some unions with very 
> large cash flows, these same unions seem largely uninterested in 
> supporting for example my welfare issues.  This is my problem but it is 
> not holier than thouness.  I tend to assume that people disagreeing with 
> me on this list fall into those categories.  (And yes, I have trouble
> relating to those who have relatively crappier stuff/situations.  What's
> there to talk about with someone who lives in a alley when you're on
> your way home for dinner.)
> 
> (Short diversion rant - where the hell were all these anti Liberal types 
> during the NDP's reign of welfare dismantling during the 1990s.  And if 
> they get the cutbacks reversed will they disappear again?  My money says
> yes they will.  Any takers?) 
> 
> We're big kids. If you choose to base your opinions of Cuban social 
> issues on my communication style that's your problem.  
> 
> As far as cheap shots go, I broke them out after you did.  And check 
> the archives, you'll find that I make an honest effort to be an equal 
> opportunity cheap shot artist.   (Once before on this very topic no 
> less.  (I'm assuming I took some cheap shots there, though I can't 
> actually remember)).
> 
> Sure, let's talk about the way men flame debates on lists.  I'd be into 
> attending a face to face meeting with people who had opinions on the 
> subject.  That would make a good miniconference.  I guess I'd rather it
> be on *people* flaming, obviously with a large section devoted to gender
> issues.  I hope you're not of the opinion that women don't produce a
> healthy amount of flames.  Actually if you are then I'm not interested
> in talking to you about it.
> 
> I dispute that I started this flame session.  I don't think I flamed 
> Barb when I asked what her methodology was.  I found her statement 
> regarding Cuban homelessness offensive.  You responded sarcastically to 
> that post.  And your response seemed to me to consist entirely of a 
> cheap shot.  Perhaps to you though it was not a flame?  
> 
> > Regarding your post, no, I do not think there is no homelessness in Cuba -
> > and I certainly don't suggest that I do.  
> 
> You did suggest such implicitly, by choosing to express only your 
> disagreement with the sources I cited and avoiding comment on my thesis.
> 
> > But I do have an issue with
> > using the Miami Cuban exile community's propaganda.  Yes, I did read all 3
> > articles.  The first 2 are exile propaganda and the 3rd is, as you so
> > aptly describe, the observations of a tourist.
> 
> I take what I can get when I am doing research.  I certainly don't base 
> my conclusions soley on the writings of evangelistic moneyed types (on 
> the left or the right).  I like to think that I and the people I am 
> talking to are capable of thinking for ourselves.
> 
> If the left would give me *anything* on this subject then I would cite 
> that first but alas....
> 
> Even if those articles were cut from whole cloth would that mean there 
> was no homelessness in Cuba?  They were the first hits I came across in 
> a very cursory search on google.ca.  I had previously on this mailing 
> list argued with someone who straight up said there were zero homeless 
> people in Cuba (which was Barb's position in the parent post of this 
> thread) and wanted to provide some, any evidence to the contrary.  
> Plenty of time to debunk it later.  Unfortunately most of the links I 
> found last time seem to have vanished and I was stuck with the more 
> unsavoury ones.  I wasn't about to spend a lot of time on it right then 
> and there either.
> 
> If you don't like my sources then by all means tell me so.  But take 
> your own advice and can the cheap shots.
> 
> > My reference to "methodology" has nothing to do with your post - but with
> > a post that came after holding up your links as some sort of scientific
> > proof of homelessness in Cuba.  Yes, you have provided some anecdotal
> > sources of homelessness (kind of like the Fraser Institute's research on
> > how unions interfere with the economy in BC), and for what that's worth,
> > fine.
> 
> Wrong.  As a matter of fact, you referred to "methodology" in direct 
> response to my post.  And in the two weeks following my post, yours has 
> been the only one in response.  No one held up my links as some sort of 
> scientific proof of anything.  It seems you have made up and presented 
> as facts the statements to which I am responding to in this paragraph.  
> Again, check the archives.  If you believe me to be wrong, please advise.
> 
> Your Fraser Institute analogy is flawed.  Economic interference is 
> subjective, abstract and obvious bullshit.  Are you trying to prove that 
> all anecdotal evidence is invalid?
> 
> > I think you are probably quite accurate in describing it as a problem
> > (which it always is) that may be less than the problem in industrial
> > countries, but a problem nonetheless.  Let's just lay-off the Batista
> > emigre community mouthpieces when we look for comment on it though, ok?
> 
> No let's not lay off the defector "mouthpieces" - unfortunately in this case 
> there's little else written on the subject.
> 
> Geordie.
> 
> > > (My apologies for any inconvenience caused by two replies to the same
> > > post.)
> > >
> > > On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 01:12:42PM -0700, Marjorie Brown wrote:
> > >> Yes, and a few more clicks will demonstrate that the first story is from
> > >> the "Free Cuba Foundation" espousing "Free Markets, Permanent Values,
> > >> Limited Government".
> > >
> > > Telling, isn't it, that the left is largely silent on this issue.  And
> > > what's your point about the "first link"?  This proves something other
> > > than your cleverness?  Did you actually read the articles?
> > >
> > > Here's one that shouldn't sully your mouse's cursor:
> > > http://www.blacklightonline.com/cubanow.html
> > >
> > > An interesting site on Cuban neologisms of the periodo especial:
> > > http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oagbv002.html
> > > The relevant portion excerpted:
> > > "In the province of Havana, people address a person from another province
> > > as palestino (palestine). This new gentile form was explained to me as
> > > the crowded way people from other areas have to live when they first
> > > come to Havana."
> > >
> > > (Hmm.  I smell smoke.)
> > >
> > >> I'm sure they have a completely objective, scientifically based
> > >> methodology for their comments on homelessness.
> > >
> > > It's called using your eyes and common sense.  None of the articles
> > > bothered with your precious scientific methodology - they were all
> > > anecdotal.  You would know this if you had read the articles before
> > > commenting on them.  (Another research method that is not scientific:
> > > parroting government press releases.  Or is sauce for the goose no
> > > longer sauce for the gander?)
> > >
> > > (I'm reminded here of the late-era USSR intelligentsia phrase "right
> > > wing", referring of course to the Soviet government and its apologists.
> > > I feel that in this context and with that meaning, this phrase applies
> > > to anyone who says Cuba has no native homeless population.)
> > >
> > > A tourist making such claims about homelessness is demonstrating
> > > naivete if not foolishness.  Any government making such claims is
> > > being dishonest.  Shame on the Cuban government.  Why do they fear
> > > widespread awareness of their beautiful country's social problems?
> > >
> > > My bullshit detector goes off real fucking loud when I hear superlatives.
> > > As one who has often found himself to be homeless I get angry when I hear
> > > supposed fellow travellers denying the existence of the homeless.
> > > (Reminds me of trying to get a welfare cheque from the god damned NDP.  At
> > > least the god damned Liberals are up front with their war on the poor.)
> > >
> > > I believe that Cuba's homeless problem is probably much less severe
> > > than that found in much of the rest of the world.  However as they say
> > > over at the IWW (and the ILWU for that matter) "An injury to one is an
> > > injury to all."  The Cuban government's preposterous claims add insult
> > > to that injury.
> > >
> > > We're talking about peoples lives here.  Have you no respect?
> > >
> > > In solidarity with the "Palestinos" and other homeless Cubans,
> > >
> > > Geordie.
> > >
> > >
> > >> > On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 08:57:52PM -0700, waldern at sfu.ca wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Housing
> > >> >> is affordable; there is no homelessness and most people own
> > >> >> a home. When they do rent housing they pay 10% of their
> > >> >> income.
> > >> >
> > >> > Two weeks in Cuba and you state definitively that there is no
> > >> > homelessness there?  What was the methodology of your research?
> > >> >
> > >> > A cursory search of the web indicates there is plenty of
> > >> > homelessness in Cuba.
> > >> >
> > >> > Unfortunately the Left is in denial of this.
> > >> >
> > >> > A few links:
> > >> >
> > >> >  "To be Homeless in Havana" Manuel David Orrio, Cooperativa
> > >> >  de Periodistas Independientes
> > >> >  http://198.62.75.1/www2/fcf/tobeho.html
> > >> >
> > >> >  "Why doesn't the government help the homeless?"
> > >> >  http://64.21.33.164/CNews/y00/nov00/03e1.htm
> > >> >
> > >> >  "CUBA Now" by Walter Lippmann
> > >> >  http://www.blacklightonline.com/cubanow.html
> > >> >
> > >> > The word "palestino" is a good search term for finding
> > >> > info re. Cuban homelessness.
> > >> >
> > >> > Geordie.