[van-discuss] free the Cuban 5 (housing 2)

[Geordie Birch]

On Mon, Jun 02, 2003 at 02:41:21AM -0700, Marcel Hatch wrote:
> Friends,
> 
> Sorry I didn't report on the Cuba links provided by a contributor.
> 
> >> Here's one that shouldn't sully your mouse's cursor:
> >> http://www.blacklightonline.com/cubanow.html
> 
> The above author, Walter Lippmann, is a personal friend of mine and a 
> fine objective (and critical) friend of Cuba. I am certain he would 
> not disagree with my (and Margorie's) evaluations of the housing 
> situation in Cuba. And I am equally certain the Cubans would not 
> either.

Actually, he says there are people who appear homeless.

> 
> >> An interesting site on Cuban neologisms of the periodo especial:
> >> http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oagbv002.html
> 
> The above author, Beatriz Varela, is a darling of the ultra-right 
> wing Cuba American terrorist gang in Florida advanced and bankrolled 
> by the CIA and the White House. Her spin on the term "palestino" is 
> simply garbage. In Cuba the term is rarely used and when so in the 
> sense of a person seeking a home in the context of a generalized 
> housing shortage resulting from the U.S. blockade. In the Cuban 
> context it is a comment against the empire not the Cuban system or 
> government. It reflects a sense of political acumen, irony and humor, 
> not a "protest" or "solidarity" statement, but a comment on fact -- 
> like we face here without the possibility of adequate employment. She 
> gets big kudos and paid well by the empire to pen such ditties and 
> nonsense. Cubans stand in complete sympathy with the Palestinians. 
> They understand Palestinians are to be exterminated by the 
> ethnic-cleansing bullets of Zionist policy. Cubans also understand 
> they themselves suffer under the blockade of the empire and its only 
> friend in voting against lifting the blockade in the U.N. (Israel) -- 
> not their elected government which resolutely fights both wrongs  -- 
> by mandate of 98% of voting Cubans 16 years and older.

You're using straw man logic here.

Who cares if the term is rarely used?  And who said it was pejorative?
You yourself say that it is used in the context of a person seeking
a home.  You go on refer to Palestine.  This has absolutely nothing to
do with what I'm talking about, which is quite narrow: references to
homeless people in Cuba.  NOT references to the Cuban government
(positive or negative,) nor any attitude Cubans might have towards any
person.  And never did I say that Cuba's government has no one suffering
underneath it.


> Manuel David Orrio, Cooperativa de Periodistas Independientes 
> (http://198.62.75.1/www2/fcf/tobeho.html ) his gang is on the payroll 
> of the CIA. Radicals have nothing in common with his ilk. Enough said 
> I hope.

Are you saying he couldn't possibly have seen dumpster divers in Havana?
And why do you feel it is necessary to distance yourself and us from
him?  A quick surf to the root site on that server shows that it should
be treated with skepticism.  Thanks, but I can think for myself.

> http://64.21.33.164/CNews/y00/nov00/03e1.htm is CubaNet and gets tens 
> of thousands of dollars per year from the White House to dispense a 
> line that promotes a "regime change" in Cuba. We all now know what 
> that means I hope.

The CubaNet connection is obvious.  And are you suggesting that the
White House has made up the problem of Cuban homelessness (the existence
of which you will remember is the subject of this subthread?)

> There's a whole lot of ways to look at the situation in Cuba. My 
> perspective is not shaped by false, fabricated and U.S. government 
> paid-for reports by people living well in the U.S. with Cuban 
> surnames and origins. My perspective is shaped by my family and many 
> friends on the island who are not without healthy criticism support 
> its stupendous accomplishments.

How about sharing some of this healthy criticism sometime instead of the
treacle?

> The campaign against Cuba is led and paid for by the same U.S. 
> interests that are making genocide on the Third and underdeveloped 
> world (for lack of betters terms, majority non-white nations might be 
> more appropriate).

Do you really think anyone hear doesn't know that?

> Cuba is not the enemy. Cuba has stood consistently for 44 years with 
> the most oppressed hardest working people everywhere. Cuba has 
> demonstrated without exception its untiring allegiance to all who are 
> like us and aspire to equality, with all the sufferers, hungry, 
> homeless and wretched -- those who regenerate capital at the expense 
> of their own fulfillment.

What do these superlatives have to do with whether or not there are 
homeless people in Cuba?

> Yours in friendship and solidarity,
> 
> Marcel Hatch
> Cuba Education Collective

Please don't be offended if it is my opinion of what you say on this
list regarding Cuba comes across more like propaganda than education.

It's obvious you have great compassion for the people of Cuba.

Geordie.

> At 18:36 -0700 6/1/03, Marjorie Brown wrote:
> >Sheesh Geordie, watch your communication style.  If we want to get all
> >holier than thou about revolutionary credentials and revolutionary lives
> >let's talk about the way men flame debates on lists and why women
> >therefore rarely take part in them.
> >
> >If you have something to say about my post, go nuts - but can the cheap
> >shots.  Do you think you will convince me of anything that way? And do you
> >think the left will convince anyone else if that's how we communicate?
> >
> >Regarding your post, no, I do not think there is no homelessness in Cuba -
> >and I certainly don't suggest that I do.  But I do have an issue with
> >using the Miami Cuban exile community's propaganda.  Yes, I did read all 3
> >articles.  The first 2 are exile propaganda and the 3rd is, as you so
> >aptly describe, the observations of a tourist.
> >
> >My reference to "methodology" has nothing to do with your post - but with
> >a post that came after holding up your links as some sort of scientific
> >proof of homelessness in Cuba.  Yes, you have provided some anecdotal
> >sources of homelessness (kind of like the Fraser Institute's research on
> >how unions interfere with the economy in BC), and for what that's worth,
> >fine.
> >
> >I think you are probably quite accurate in describing it as a problem
> >(which it always is) that may be less than the problem in industrial
> >countries, but a problem nonetheless.  Let's just lay-off the Batista
> >emigre community mouthpieces when we look for comment on it though, ok?
> >
> >Marjorie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> (My apologies for any inconvenience caused by two replies to the same
> >> post.)
> >>
> >> On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 01:12:42PM -0700, Marjorie Brown wrote:
> >>> Yes, and a few more clicks will demonstrate that the first story is from
> >>> the "Free Cuba Foundation" espousing "Free Markets, Permanent Values,
> >>> Limited Government".
> >>
> >> Telling, isn't it, that the left is largely silent on this issue.  And
> >> what's your point about the "first link"?  This proves something other
> >> than your cleverness?  Did you actually read the articles?
> >>
> >> Here's one that shouldn't sully your mouse's cursor:
> >> http://www.blacklightonline.com/cubanow.html
> >>
> >> An interesting site on Cuban neologisms of the periodo especial:
> >> http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oagbv002.html
> >> The relevant portion excerpted:
> >> "In the province of Havana, people address a person from another province
> >> as palestino (palestine). This new gentile form was explained to me as
> >> the crowded way people from other areas have to live when they first
> >> come to Havana."
> >>
> >> (Hmm.  I smell smoke.)
> >>
> >>> I'm sure they have a completely objective, scientifically based
> >>> methodology for their comments on homelessness.
> >>
> >> It's called using your eyes and common sense.  None of the articles
> >> bothered with your precious scientific methodology - they were all
> >> anecdotal.  You would know this if you had read the articles before
> >> commenting on them.  (Another research method that is not scientific:
> >> parroting government press releases.  Or is sauce for the goose no
> >> longer sauce for the gander?)
> >>
> >> (I'm reminded here of the late-era USSR intelligentsia phrase "right
> >> wing", referring of course to the Soviet government and its apologists.
> >> I feel that in this context and with that meaning, this phrase applies
> >> to anyone who says Cuba has no native homeless population.)
> >>
> >> A tourist making such claims about homelessness is demonstrating
> >> naivete if not foolishness.  Any government making such claims is
> >> being dishonest.  Shame on the Cuban government.  Why do they fear
> >> widespread awareness of their beautiful country's social problems?
> >>
> >> My bullshit detector goes off real fucking loud when I hear superlatives.
> >> As one who has often found himself to be homeless I get angry when I hear
> >> supposed fellow travellers denying the existence of the homeless.
> >> (Reminds me of trying to get a welfare cheque from the god damned NDP.  At
> >> least the god damned Liberals are up front with their war on the poor.)
> >>
> >> I believe that Cuba's homeless problem is probably much less severe
> >> than that found in much of the rest of the world.  However as they say
> >> over at the IWW (and the ILWU for that matter) "An injury to one is an
> >> injury to all."  The Cuban government's preposterous claims add insult
> >> to that injury.
> >>
> >> We're talking about peoples lives here.  Have you no respect?
> >>
> >> In solidarity with the "Palestinos" and other homeless Cubans,
> >>
> >> Geordie.
> >>
> >>
> >>> > On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 08:57:52PM -0700, waldern at sfu.ca wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Housing
> >>> >> is affordable; there is no homelessness and most people own
> >>> >> a home. When they do rent housing they pay 10% of their
> >>> >> income.
> >>> >
> >>> > Two weeks in Cuba and you state definitively that there is no
> >>> > homelessness there?  What was the methodology of your research?
> >>> >
> >>> > A cursory search of the web indicates there is plenty of
> >>> > homelessness in Cuba.
> >>> >
> >>> > Unfortunately the Left is in denial of this.
> >>> >
> >>> > A few links:
> >>> >
> >>> >  "To be Homeless in Havana" Manuel David Orrio, Cooperativa
> >>> >  de Periodistas Independientes
> >>> >  http://198.62.75.1/www2/fcf/tobeho.html
> >>> >
> >>> >  "Why doesn't the government help the homeless?"
> >>> >  http://64.21.33.164/CNews/y00/nov00/03e1.htm
> >>> >
> >>> >  "CUBA Now" by Walter Lippmann
> >>> >  http://www.blacklightonline.com/cubanow.html
> >>> >
> >>> > The word "palestino" is a good search term for finding
> >>> > info re. Cuban homelessness.
> >>> >
> >>> > Geordie.
> >>
> >
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