[van-discuss] free the Cuban 5
Geordie Birch
geordie at tao.ca
Mon Jun 2 07:47:52 PDT 2003
On Sun, Jun 01, 2003 at 06:36:15PM -0700, Marjorie Brown wrote:
> Sheesh Geordie, watch your communication style. If we want to get all
> holier than thou about revolutionary credentials and revolutionary lives
> let's talk about the way men flame debates on lists and why women
> therefore rarely take part in them.
>
> If you have something to say about my post, go nuts - but can the cheap
> shots. Do you think you will convince me of anything that way? And do you
> think the left will convince anyone else if that's how we communicate?
I don't really care about revolutionary credentials. I'll certainly
refer to my own experiences and opinions however. And I have trouble
relating to people with more than one of the following: Relatively
new/expensive: cars/cloths/digs/computers/bicycles/educations. And Union
jobs, as many of these are relatively stable and high paying, and
although I am asked on a regular basis to back up some unions with very
large cash flows, these same unions seem largely uninterested in
supporting for example my welfare issues. This is my problem but it is
not holier than thouness. I tend to assume that people disagreeing with
me on this list fall into those categories. (And yes, I have trouble
relating to those who have relatively crappier stuff/situations. What's
there to talk about with someone who lives in a alley when you're on
your way home for dinner.)
(Short diversion rant - where the hell were all these anti Liberal types
during the NDP's reign of welfare dismantling during the 1990s. And if
they get the cutbacks reversed will they disappear again? My money says
yes they will. Any takers?)
We're big kids. If you choose to base your opinions of Cuban social
issues on my communication style that's your problem.
As far as cheap shots go, I broke them out after you did. And check
the archives, you'll find that I make an honest effort to be an equal
opportunity cheap shot artist. (Once before on this very topic no
less. (I'm assuming I took some cheap shots there, though I can't
actually remember)).
Sure, let's talk about the way men flame debates on lists. I'd be into
attending a face to face meeting with people who had opinions on the
subject. That would make a good miniconference. I guess I'd rather it
be on *people* flaming, obviously with a large section devoted to gender
issues. I hope you're not of the opinion that women don't produce a
healthy amount of flames. Actually if you are then I'm not interested
in talking to you about it.
I dispute that I started this flame session. I don't think I flamed
Barb when I asked what her methodology was. I found her statement
regarding Cuban homelessness offensive. You responded sarcastically to
that post. And your response seemed to me to consist entirely of a
cheap shot. Perhaps to you though it was not a flame?
> Regarding your post, no, I do not think there is no homelessness in Cuba -
> and I certainly don't suggest that I do.
You did suggest such implicitly, by choosing to express only your
disagreement with the sources I cited and avoiding comment on my thesis.
> But I do have an issue with
> using the Miami Cuban exile community's propaganda. Yes, I did read all 3
> articles. The first 2 are exile propaganda and the 3rd is, as you so
> aptly describe, the observations of a tourist.
I take what I can get when I am doing research. I certainly don't base
my conclusions soley on the writings of evangelistic moneyed types (on
the left or the right). I like to think that I and the people I am
talking to are capable of thinking for ourselves.
If the left would give me *anything* on this subject then I would cite
that first but alas....
Even if those articles were cut from whole cloth would that mean there
was no homelessness in Cuba? They were the first hits I came across in
a very cursory search on google.ca. I had previously on this mailing
list argued with someone who straight up said there were zero homeless
people in Cuba (which was Barb's position in the parent post of this
thread) and wanted to provide some, any evidence to the contrary.
Plenty of time to debunk it later. Unfortunately most of the links I
found last time seem to have vanished and I was stuck with the more
unsavoury ones. I wasn't about to spend a lot of time on it right then
and there either.
If you don't like my sources then by all means tell me so. But take
your own advice and can the cheap shots.
> My reference to "methodology" has nothing to do with your post - but with
> a post that came after holding up your links as some sort of scientific
> proof of homelessness in Cuba. Yes, you have provided some anecdotal
> sources of homelessness (kind of like the Fraser Institute's research on
> how unions interfere with the economy in BC), and for what that's worth,
> fine.
Wrong. As a matter of fact, you referred to "methodology" in direct
response to my post. And in the two weeks following my post, yours has
been the only one in response. No one held up my links as some sort of
scientific proof of anything. It seems you have made up and presented
as facts the statements to which I am responding to in this paragraph.
Again, check the archives. If you believe me to be wrong, please advise.
Your Fraser Institute analogy is flawed. Economic interference is
subjective, abstract and obvious bullshit. Are you trying to prove that
all anecdotal evidence is invalid?
> I think you are probably quite accurate in describing it as a problem
> (which it always is) that may be less than the problem in industrial
> countries, but a problem nonetheless. Let's just lay-off the Batista
> emigre community mouthpieces when we look for comment on it though, ok?
No let's not lay off the defector "mouthpieces" - unfortunately in this case
there's little else written on the subject.
Geordie.
> > (My apologies for any inconvenience caused by two replies to the same
> > post.)
> >
> > On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 01:12:42PM -0700, Marjorie Brown wrote:
> >> Yes, and a few more clicks will demonstrate that the first story is from
> >> the "Free Cuba Foundation" espousing "Free Markets, Permanent Values,
> >> Limited Government".
> >
> > Telling, isn't it, that the left is largely silent on this issue. And
> > what's your point about the "first link"? This proves something other
> > than your cleverness? Did you actually read the articles?
> >
> > Here's one that shouldn't sully your mouse's cursor:
> > http://www.blacklightonline.com/cubanow.html
> >
> > An interesting site on Cuban neologisms of the periodo especial:
> > http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oagbv002.html
> > The relevant portion excerpted:
> > "In the province of Havana, people address a person from another province
> > as palestino (palestine). This new gentile form was explained to me as
> > the crowded way people from other areas have to live when they first
> > come to Havana."
> >
> > (Hmm. I smell smoke.)
> >
> >> I'm sure they have a completely objective, scientifically based
> >> methodology for their comments on homelessness.
> >
> > It's called using your eyes and common sense. None of the articles
> > bothered with your precious scientific methodology - they were all
> > anecdotal. You would know this if you had read the articles before
> > commenting on them. (Another research method that is not scientific:
> > parroting government press releases. Or is sauce for the goose no
> > longer sauce for the gander?)
> >
> > (I'm reminded here of the late-era USSR intelligentsia phrase "right
> > wing", referring of course to the Soviet government and its apologists.
> > I feel that in this context and with that meaning, this phrase applies
> > to anyone who says Cuba has no native homeless population.)
> >
> > A tourist making such claims about homelessness is demonstrating
> > naivete if not foolishness. Any government making such claims is
> > being dishonest. Shame on the Cuban government. Why do they fear
> > widespread awareness of their beautiful country's social problems?
> >
> > My bullshit detector goes off real fucking loud when I hear superlatives.
> > As one who has often found himself to be homeless I get angry when I hear
> > supposed fellow travellers denying the existence of the homeless.
> > (Reminds me of trying to get a welfare cheque from the god damned NDP. At
> > least the god damned Liberals are up front with their war on the poor.)
> >
> > I believe that Cuba's homeless problem is probably much less severe
> > than that found in much of the rest of the world. However as they say
> > over at the IWW (and the ILWU for that matter) "An injury to one is an
> > injury to all." The Cuban government's preposterous claims add insult
> > to that injury.
> >
> > We're talking about peoples lives here. Have you no respect?
> >
> > In solidarity with the "Palestinos" and other homeless Cubans,
> >
> > Geordie.
> >
> >
> >> > On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 08:57:52PM -0700, waldern at sfu.ca wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Housing
> >> >> is affordable; there is no homelessness and most people own
> >> >> a home. When they do rent housing they pay 10% of their
> >> >> income.
> >> >
> >> > Two weeks in Cuba and you state definitively that there is no
> >> > homelessness there? What was the methodology of your research?
> >> >
> >> > A cursory search of the web indicates there is plenty of
> >> > homelessness in Cuba.
> >> >
> >> > Unfortunately the Left is in denial of this.
> >> >
> >> > A few links:
> >> >
> >> > "To be Homeless in Havana" Manuel David Orrio, Cooperativa
> >> > de Periodistas Independientes
> >> > http://198.62.75.1/www2/fcf/tobeho.html
> >> >
> >> > "Why doesn't the government help the homeless?"
> >> > http://64.21.33.164/CNews/y00/nov00/03e1.htm
> >> >
> >> > "CUBA Now" by Walter Lippmann
> >> > http://www.blacklightonline.com/cubanow.html
> >> >
> >> > The word "palestino" is a good search term for finding
> >> > info re. Cuban homelessness.
> >> >
> >> > Geordie.
> >
>
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