[van-discuss] free the Cuban 5

[Marjorie Brown]

Sheesh Geordie, watch your communication style.  If we want to get all
holier than thou about revolutionary credentials and revolutionary lives
let's talk about the way men flame debates on lists and why women
therefore rarely take part in them.

If you have something to say about my post, go nuts - but can the cheap
shots.  Do you think you will convince me of anything that way? And do you
think the left will convince anyone else if that's how we communicate?

Regarding your post, no, I do not think there is no homelessness in Cuba -
and I certainly don't suggest that I do.  But I do have an issue with
using the Miami Cuban exile community's propaganda.  Yes, I did read all 3
articles.  The first 2 are exile propaganda and the 3rd is, as you so
aptly describe, the observations of a tourist.

My reference to "methodology" has nothing to do with your post - but with
a post that came after holding up your links as some sort of scientific
proof of homelessness in Cuba.  Yes, you have provided some anecdotal
sources of homelessness (kind of like the Fraser Institute's research on
how unions interfere with the economy in BC), and for what that's worth,
fine.

I think you are probably quite accurate in describing it as a problem
(which it always is) that may be less than the problem in industrial
countries, but a problem nonetheless.  Let's just lay-off the Batista
emigre community mouthpieces when we look for comment on it though, ok?

Marjorie




> (My apologies for any inconvenience caused by two replies to the same
> post.)
>
> On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 01:12:42PM -0700, Marjorie Brown wrote:
>> Yes, and a few more clicks will demonstrate that the first story is from
>> the "Free Cuba Foundation" espousing "Free Markets, Permanent Values,
>> Limited Government".
>
> Telling, isn't it, that the left is largely silent on this issue.  And
> what's your point about the "first link"?  This proves something other
> than your cleverness?  Did you actually read the articles?
>
> Here's one that shouldn't sully your mouse's cursor:
> http://www.blacklightonline.com/cubanow.html
>
> An interesting site on Cuban neologisms of the periodo especial:
> http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oagbv002.html
> The relevant portion excerpted:
> "In the province of Havana, people address a person from another province
> as palestino (palestine). This new gentile form was explained to me as
> the crowded way people from other areas have to live when they first
> come to Havana."
>
> (Hmm.  I smell smoke.)
>
>> I'm sure they have a completely objective, scientifically based
>> methodology for their comments on homelessness.
>
> It's called using your eyes and common sense.  None of the articles
> bothered with your precious scientific methodology - they were all
> anecdotal.  You would know this if you had read the articles before
> commenting on them.  (Another research method that is not scientific:
> parroting government press releases.  Or is sauce for the goose no
> longer sauce for the gander?)
>
> (I'm reminded here of the late-era USSR intelligentsia phrase "right
> wing", referring of course to the Soviet government and its apologists.
> I feel that in this context and with that meaning, this phrase applies
> to anyone who says Cuba has no native homeless population.)
>
> A tourist making such claims about homelessness is demonstrating
> naivete if not foolishness.  Any government making such claims is
> being dishonest.  Shame on the Cuban government.  Why do they fear
> widespread awareness of their beautiful country's social problems?
>
> My bullshit detector goes off real fucking loud when I hear superlatives.
> As one who has often found himself to be homeless I get angry when I hear
> supposed fellow travellers denying the existence of the homeless.
> (Reminds me of trying to get a welfare cheque from the god damned NDP.  At
> least the god damned Liberals are up front with their war on the poor.)
>
> I believe that Cuba's homeless problem is probably much less severe
> than that found in much of the rest of the world.  However as they say
> over at the IWW (and the ILWU for that matter) "An injury to one is an
> injury to all."  The Cuban government's preposterous claims add insult
> to that injury.
>
> We're talking about peoples lives here.  Have you no respect?
>
> In solidarity with the "Palestinos" and other homeless Cubans,
>
> Geordie.
>
>
>> > On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 08:57:52PM -0700, waldern at sfu.ca wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Housing
>> >> is affordable; there is no homelessness and most people own
>> >> a home. When they do rent housing they pay 10% of their
>> >> income.
>> >
>> > Two weeks in Cuba and you state definitively that there is no
>> > homelessness there?  What was the methodology of your research?
>> >
>> > A cursory search of the web indicates there is plenty of
>> > homelessness in Cuba.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately the Left is in denial of this.
>> >
>> > A few links:
>> >
>> >  "To be Homeless in Havana" Manuel David Orrio, Cooperativa
>> >  de Periodistas Independientes
>> >  http://198.62.75.1/www2/fcf/tobeho.html
>> >
>> >  "Why doesn't the government help the homeless?"
>> >  http://64.21.33.164/CNews/y00/nov00/03e1.htm
>> >
>> >  "CUBA Now" by Walter Lippmann
>> >  http://www.blacklightonline.com/cubanow.html
>> >
>> > The word "palestino" is a good search term for finding
>> > info re. Cuban homelessness.
>> >
>> > Geordie.
>