[mobglob-discuss] A radical idea !

[Chris Shaw]

Thanks for your very positive response to Bella. Let's keep working on this: 
maybe we have all found our own 'teachable moment' to get this all behind us 
and move on.


>From: "Macdonald Stainsby" <mstainsby at dojo.tao.ca>
>Reply-To: mobglob-discuss at resist.ca
>To: <mobglob-discuss at resist.ca>
>Subject: Re: [mobglob-discuss] A radical idea !
>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:38:12 -0000
>
>I'll make this the last of it then, Bella.
>
>I'll deal a little with your questions/comments and propose we come up
>with guidelines for how anti-oppressive relations need to work. What
>kind of lines are we going to draw? What is and is not okay in our
>movement? Let's try to hash that out. How do we define racism? Is it a
>construct of bad attitudes, or is it systemic and problematic? What of
>the far-right attempts to infiltrate the anti-globalisation movement
>throughout Europe and North America? Is this an issue that anti-racists
>should take up? Can we come to a basis of unity against any and all
>forms of racial-conspiracy mongering? not simple conspiracy mongering,
>you understand- the conspiracy to kill Kennedy, the attempt to
>undermine our health system, etc.
>
>But how about: we do not believe that the "Zionist Occupational
>Government" runs North America. Can we at least agree to that and hold
>our members to the same? Would that be censorship or a very tame and
>simple statement (one would hope simple). Let us kick around some basic
>forumlas then, of what we want in an anti-racist statement of
>principles. I'll leave that as a request, and see what comes of it.
>
>Another time, another place for the discussion of the paper is fine.
>But so far as the Radical and the comparison to the Socialist Worker
>paper, I don't read the SW, I'm not a particular fan. That doesn't mean
>it is dangerous, nor do I find it offensive. I just don't happen to
>subscribe to the particular anti-capitalist take of the SW, but it is
>just another progressive paper. Different issue entirely...
>
>As far as the testosterone level of the postings, I'm certain you are
>correct-- as I'm spending way too much office time in here on this
>bloody thing. Helping work out frustrations, you might say.
>
>One last thing: The "left" isn't censoring the left, the left is
>attempting to make clear exactly what "left" means.
>
>Taking anti-misogyny sideswipes will never bother me. People might
>think otherwise, but I find most repressed groups taking shots like
>this to be a (possibly bad) form of resistance.
>
>Macdonald
>
>
>
>Bella <bella_donna_36 at yahoo.com> said:
>
> > How about if anyone doesn't like the Radical, don't read it. There are
> > publications, tvshows, newspapers, columnists, 'isms' and individuals
>out
> > there that people disagree with for various reasons.  For example,
>there
> > are activists that don't agree with every article in IS literature
>either,
> > but nobody goes on the attack about it or confronts IS paper-sellers
>at
> > actions (please dont label me for using this example).  Everyone is
> > entitled to their own political views, religious beliefs, etc.
>Diversity
> > is such a wonderful thing.
> >
> > Racism should not be tolerated, however the left censoring the left is
> > equally appalling.
> >
> > I think Mac, Rick and Arthur each have some valid points, and this
>subject
> > is worth discussing in a rational way. However, the testosterone
>level of
> > the thread has gotten cranked right up (Oh gawd, I hope I'm not
>labelled
> > as a male-ist), and degenerated to what comes across as muscle-
>flexing,
> > typical male bullshit (pardon my French - oops, I hope you dont think
>I'm
> > a seperatist).  The discussion is not rational anymore, the finger
> > pointing is childish and the head butting is getting boring.  It's
>making
> > Mobglob look a bunch of whiney-baby infighters.  Is there any
>conclusion
> > on the horizon to this?
> >
> > I hope you don't think I'm just being "bitchy" cuz that would make
>you a
> > misogynist. I'd really like to work with all of you, and I'm taking
>this
> > in stride. It just seems that words are picked apart so quickly
>(hence my
> > sarcastic interjections - I hope my point has been made).  I'm mostly
> > interested in how you guys will resolve this, which will be very
>telling.
> >
> > Peace, love and resolution,
> > Shirley
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Macdonald Stainsby <mstainsby at dojo.tao.ca> wrote:
> > > Arthur Topham has begun threatening me for calling him and his
>paper
> > > associated with racists. I stand by that, and I think the David
>Icke
> > > quotes and the Paul Fromm article are sufficient evidence.
> > >
> > > A couple of points: I apologised for my tone on emails with Rick
>vis a
> > > vis the thread on the list; I apologised not at all for doing what
>I
> > > could to expel the Radical from the Convergence Centre in Calgary.
> > >
> > > Jews do not drink the blood of gentiles and that is obviously a
>line we
> > > must draw. Abortion rights should be sacrosanct and so there too is
>a
> > > line. People who defend this paper keep saying, in different words,
>two
> > > basic points: one, the amount of good things in the paper outweigh
>the
> > > rabid anti-immigration, anti-semitic (and other), so ignore the
>stuff
> > > you don't like. I suggest that people do a bit of research into the
> > > orignial Nazi Party program of 1922. It had the contents of
> > > nationalisation of the banks, workers full employment and several
> > > public works projects. Within the context of today's politics,
>stripped
> > > of the anti-semitism and all of the militarism, it would appear
>social-
> > > democratic as well. One cannot ignore the links to bizarre (and
> > > dangerous) political positions! Joseph Goebbels was once a self-
> > > professed Marxist and revolutionary, and he joined the Nazis
>because
> > > they were called "The German National Socialist Workers Party".
>From
> > > there, they twisted his mind into the mind that twisted millions.
>So,
> > > one can see it matters when small bits of refuse crawl in.
> > >
> > > Second point to attempt to refute: I have never once said whether I
> > > think Arthur is a racist. I don't care! This is so besides the
>point it
> > > is utterly a waste of time to get into it. What matters are A) has
>the
> > > paper carried anti-woman, anti-semitic and anti-immigrant policy
> > > pieces; B) have all of these things been made clearly, as a show of
> > > faith to the rest of the progressive community in all the colours
>and
> > > genders therein, never to be seen as part of then paper or it's
> > > contents again? No. He defends it.
> > >
> > > Topham has a massive article on the front page of his website
>extolling
> > > a recent speaking tour by David Icke. Whether Topham believes that
>Icke
> > > isn't really an anti-semite or is secretly trying to re-promote the
> > > Protocols of the Elders of Zion, I don't know and I don't care.
> > >
> > > The fact is the paper has associated itself with many dodgy and
> > > dangerous characters. That's not anything other than a fact. I am
>not
> > > concerned with psycho-analysing anything at all about these people.
>All
> > > I want to do is demonstrate their politics and their dangerous
> > > political associations. If Topham wants to put the issue to rest,
>he
> > > can do so very easily. But that would mean making a break from
>David
> > > Icke et al.
> > >
> > > Here is Arthur and his psycho-analytical rant against myself, made
> > > public. I don't know how many times people have threatened to sue
>me.
> > > It's always quite the compliment.
> > >
> > > Finally, all due respect to Leon Trotsky, I'm not a Trot.
> > >
> > > Macdonald
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Radical Press <radical at radicalpress.com> said:
> > >
> > > > Dear Macdonald,
> > > >
> > > > RE: Current Smear Campaign Against Myself and my Newspaper, The
> > > Radical.
> > > >
> > > > It appears that you are carrying on in a most ignoble manner
> > > regarding both
> > > > the accusations you are making against myself and my newspaper
>The
> > > Radical.
> > > > While I can appreciate your concerns about racism and maintaining
>the
> > > purity
> > > > of "your" movement and the movement of Will Offley, I really must
> > > inform you
> > > > that there are laws that exist in this country which limit what a
> > > person can
> > > > and can't say about another citizen. They are known as libel and
> > > defamation.
> > > >
> > > > As for your callous actions of late, especially the manner in
>which
> > > you
> > > > treated me while I was in Calgary, I'm afraid I can't accept the
> > > excuse that
> > > > you were merely having a "nic" fit. Your behaviour was deplorable
>and
> > > > revealed to me a mind bordering on delusional fantasy and mental
> > > breakdown.
> > > > Then, after returning home, I find that you also accosted my
>friend
> > > Rick
> > > > McCallion and treated him to your assinine and childish outbursts
>as
> > > well.
> > > > Then, to top it off, upon arrival home to your safe haven in
> > > Vancouver, you
> > > > proceed to bad mouth him and I and my newspaper and accuse Rick
>of
> > > all sorts
> > > > of vile deeds on the mobglob discussion list. And you call
>yourself a
> > > > revolutionary? Someone to be trusted and listened to seriously?
> > > Someone to
> > > > be constantly mouthing the words "we" and "our" with respect to
>the
> > > social
> > > > justice movement in B.C. and Canada, as if you personally were
> > > somehow in
> > > > control of what millions of people around the world are currently
> > > involved
> > > > in?
> > > >
> > > > One thing I can say about Will is that, apart from his bigotted
>and
> > > > misguided principles, he at least is not as openly stupid and
>rabid
> > > as you
> > > > are. Your frenzied fixation with David Icke is akin to a mentally-
> > > deranged
> > > > person. I will admit that with Paul Fromm you have a bit of a
>case to
> > > flout
> > > > in your favour (even though you take the excerpts out of context
>from
> > > the
> > > > article itself) although I have already explained my position
> > > regarding that
> > > > issue on the vancouver-d list back in January of this year.
> > > >
> > > > You are a fanatic Macdonald. Pure and simple. Although more
>simple in
> > > some
> > > > respects. Your method of dealing with racism is no different that
> > > that of
> > > > Gordon Watson when it comes to the pro-choice movement or the
> > > homophobic
> > > > Christian Fundamentalists who bristle with hatred at the sight of
> > > gays,
> > > > lesbians or transexuals, or the zenophobic rantings of the
>Canadian
> > > Alliance
> > > > Party. All of your sort suffer from some type of messiah complex
> > > mixed in
> > > > with a personal sense of self-worthlessness. Gordon's cross is
> > > abortion,
> > > > yours racism. And, I would suspect that like Gordon you too would
> > > sanction
> > > > the killing of anyone who expressed such views as you
>deem "racist",
> > > > preferably by having the new State do it for you so as to prevent
>your
> > > > conscience from bothering you too much at night.
> > > >
> > > > I note in your recent tear-stained confession on the list that
>you
> > > are now
> > > > trying to suck up to Rick and defend your deplorable behaviour.
> > > Again, a
> > > > sign of weakness and confusion on your part. You can't seem to
> > > fathom, for
> > > > all your internal tryings, that I may not be the spook and demon
>that
> > > you
> > > > would like to believe and have the rest of the world believe. As
> > > well, your
> > > > arguments are second hand and second rate and merely poor
>substitutes
> > > of old
> > > > worn out, dogmatic Trotskyist platitudes that Will tried in his
> > > Canadian
> > > > Dimensia article back two years ago. It really makes me wonder
> > > whether or
> > > > not you have an active, creative and original mind of your own or
> > > whether
> > > > you are just another Moonie-style, brainwashed Trot who follows
>the
> > > leader
> > > > without question.
> > > >
> > > > As for your strategy of smear it's as old as Lenin himself and
>one
> > > that the
> > > > Trots have been employing  against anarchists for decades. But,
>what
> > > is
> > > > different now Macdonald, is that I have the option of suing you
>for
> > > libel
> > > > and slander and at the same time also exposing you and your
>deluded
> > > comrades
> > > > for what you truly are: bigots and fanatics of the worse kind. So
> > > stand
> > > > warned the next time that you start calling me names the likes of
> > > which are
> > > > appearing on mobglob. That sort of defamation, based on hearsay
>and
> > > mere
> > > > accusation and hatred, is more than suitable grounds for issuing
>you
> > > a writ
> > > > of summons. It can happen. It has happened. It will happen again.
> > > >
> > > > Arthur Topham
> > > > Pub/Ed
> > > > The Radical
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Macdonald Stainsby,
> > > External Relations Co-ordinator,
> > > Douglas College Students Union.
> > > **
> > > In the contradiction lies the hope. --Bertholt Brecht.
> > > ***
> > > "`Order rules in Berlin.' You stupid lackeys! Your
> > > `order' is built on sand. Tomorrow the revolution will rear
> > > ahead once more and announce to your horror amid the brass
> > > of trumpets: `I was, I am, I always will be!'"
> > >
> > > -Rosa Luxemburg, 1918.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > mobglob-discuss mailing list
> > > mobglob-discuss at resist.ca
> > >
> > === message truncated ===
> >
> >
> > =====
> > talk-action=nothing
> >
> > __________________________________________________
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> > _______________________________________________
> > mobglob-discuss mailing list
> > mobglob-discuss at resist.ca
> > http://resist.ca/mailman/listinfo/mobglob-discuss
> >
>
>
>
>--
>Macdonald Stainsby,
>External Relations Co-ordinator,
>Douglas College Students Union.
>**
>In the contradiction lies the hope. --Bertholt Brecht.
>***
>"`Order rules in Berlin.' You stupid lackeys! Your
>`order' is built on sand. Tomorrow the revolution will rear
>ahead once more and announce to your horror amid the brass
>of trumpets: `I was, I am, I always will be!'"
>
>-Rosa Luxemburg, 1918.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>mobglob-discuss mailing list
>mobglob-discuss at resist.ca
>http://resist.ca/mailman/listinfo/mobglob-discuss




Christopher A. Shaw, Ph.D
Associate Professor
Research Pavilion
828 W. 10th Ave.
Vancouver, British Columbia
Canada, V5Z 1L8
tel: 604-875-4111 (ext. 68375)
Fax: 604-875-4376
e-mail: csshawlab at hotmail.com


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