[Iyf-ct] Iyf-ct Digest, Vol 3, Issue 11
caragh iles
caragh at zenbe.com
Tue Jul 21 02:50:34 PDT 2009
I think Mike makes it quite clear how you will be rewarded- according to effort and sacrifice. As efficiency is important as well , goods and services will not be provided unless the society wants them, which is the best kind of servicing of needs I have yet to come across.
And in response to the care work problem, effort and sacrifice means that a care worker will be paid better then a doctor. At the same time, because of the equity, diversity and self-management values, the effort and sacrifice inspired compensation should go hand in hand with what we call balanced job complexes. Also by changing the value systems in a community the mother shouldnt have to do all the work that she does now and the community will play a larger role. I think what people tend to forget about parecon is that it is a holistic shift and much of what it demands, by being so equity based, is very difficult to even picture in todays society as it demands a complete change.
Logistics-The Z Com website was updated yesterday and if you click on the side links the essays should work.I know some peoples ones are not linking properly but if you go to their page then you should be able to see them.
Hope that helps
Aluta Continua
On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 10:40 AM iyf-ct-request at lists.resist.ca wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Z Communications' "Reimagining Society" project
(Mandy Moussouris)
2. Re: Z Communications' "Reimagining Society" project
(pvh at webbedfeet.co.za)
3. Re: Z Communications' "Reimagining Society" project
(Mandy Moussouris)
4. [Fwd: RE: Z Communications' "Reimagining Society" project]
(pvh at webbedfeet.co.za)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:45:51 +0200
From: Mandy Moussouris <mandymoussouris at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Iyf-ct] Z Communications' "Reimagining Society" project
To: <pvh at webbedfeet.co.za>, In your face <iyf-ct at lists.resist.ca>
Message-ID: <COL105-W20FEB55B363F74A1E42F5EB51A0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Thanks Peter,
Looks interesting, but I couldn't open any of the esays. Albert generally has interesting ideas but the biggest problem I have with his proposals is that he argues that people should be rewarded (in teh new economy) according to their contribution not need. This goes against the traditional Anarchist position and to my mind would not ultimately address the fundamental inequalities in society - just thought I'd put that out there.
Looking ofrward to seeing everyone on Saturday
Comradely
Mandy
> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:49:07 +0200
> From: pvh at webbedfeet.co.za
> To: iyf-ct at lists.resist.ca
> Subject: [Iyf-ct] Z Communications' "Reimagining Society" project
>
> I'm leery of 'intellectual heavy' projects, but I was just looking at Z
> Communications "Reimagining Society" webpage. Basically, Z Communications
> is the WWW presence of Z Magazine, which itself is a "left" ideas magazine
> / project co-ordinated by Michael Albert (of "Participation Economics"
> fame). So Z has approached 350 people across the globe for their ideas of
> alternatives. Its a mixed bag of stuff - there are so many ideas out
> there, its hard to keep it all straight - but feel free to go read:
>
> http://www.zmag.org/zparecon/reimaginingsociety.htm
>
> Peter
>
> _______________________________________________
> Iyf-ct mailing list
> Iyf-ct at lists.resist.ca
> https://lists.resist.ca/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/iyf-ct
_________________________________________________________________
With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos.
http://www.microsoft.com/southafrica/windows/windowslive/products/photo-gallery-edit.aspx
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 09:55:06 +0200 (SAST)
From: pvh at webbedfeet.co.za
Subject: Re: [Iyf-ct] Z Communications' "Reimagining Society" project
To: iyf-ct at lists.resist.ca
Message-ID: <c3779a1c73f5b46c8e395f9900c5a4eb.squirrel at wfeet.za.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
And how to calculate contribution? My problem with Albert is the problem I
have with all "utopian socialism" - its a schema on paper just waiting to
be implemented. I've been reading through essays, though, and there's all
sorts of different ideas out there, reflecting the fact that we face
multiple sources (mechanisms, levels, not sure what to call 'em exactly)
of oppression and exploitation.
Having said that, I just discovered this morning that someone in another
city who I barely know has decided that I'm politically a problem.
Solidarity, never? *sigh*
Peter
>
>
>
>
> Thanks Peter,
>
>
>
> Looks interesting, but I couldn't open any of the esays. Albert generally
> has interesting ideas but the biggest problem I have with his proposals is
> that he argues that people should be rewarded (in teh new economy)
> according to their contribution not need. This goes against the
> traditional Anarchist position and to my mind would not ultimately address
> the fundamental inequalities in society - just thought I'd put that out
> there.
>
>
>
> Looking ofrward to seeing everyone on Saturday
>
>
>
> Comradely
>
> Mandy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:49:07 +0200
>> From: pvh at webbedfeet.co.za
>> To: iyf-ct at lists.resist.ca
>> Subject: [Iyf-ct] Z Communications' "Reimagining Society" project
>>
>> I'm leery of 'intellectual heavy' projects, but I was just looking at Z
>> Communications "Reimagining Society" webpage. Basically, Z
>> Communications
>> is the WWW presence of Z Magazine, which itself is a "left" ideas
>> magazine
>> / project co-ordinated by Michael Albert (of "Participation Economics"
>> fame). So Z has approached 350 people across the globe for their ideas
>> of
>> alternatives. Its a mixed bag of stuff - there are so many ideas out
>> there, its hard to keep it all straight - but feel free to go read:
>>
>> http://www.zmag.org/zparecon/reimaginingsociety.htm
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Iyf-ct mailing list
>> Iyf-ct at lists.resist.ca
>> https://lists.resist.ca/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/iyf-ct
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos.
> http://www.microsoft.com/southafrica/windows/windowslive/products/photo-gallery-edit.aspx
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:18:05 +0200
From: Mandy Moussouris <mandymoussouris at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Iyf-ct] Z Communications' "Reimagining Society" project
To: <pvh at webbedfeet.co.za>, In your face <iyf-ct at lists.resist.ca>
Message-ID: <COL105-W17E1AB32204CF39C716AEBB51A0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Andreas, you are right, it is about effort and Peter's point about how you calculte effort. Best example of the problem is how you calculate effort in terms of care work - so how do you calculte the effort of a mother who has to leave her child and go to work and then come home and do the washing cooking etc. I agree that there are a lot of interesting and some useful ideas in Paragon but this issue just does not sit well with my Anarcho-communist soal :-)
> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 09:55:06 +0200
> From: pvh at webbedfeet.co.za
> To: iyf-ct at lists.resist.ca
> Subject: Re: [Iyf-ct] Z Communications' "Reimagining Society" project
>
> And how to calculate contribution? My problem with Albert is the problem I
> have with all "utopian socialism" - its a schema on paper just waiting to
> be implemented. I've been reading through essays, though, and there's all
> sorts of different ideas out there, reflecting the fact that we face
> multiple sources (mechanisms, levels, not sure what to call 'em exactly)
> of oppression and exploitation.
>
> Having said that, I just discovered this morning that someone in another
> city who I barely know has decided that I'm politically a problem.
> Solidarity, never? *sigh*
>
> Peter
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks Peter,
> >
> >
> >
> > Looks interesting, but I couldn't open any of the esays. Albert generally
> > has interesting ideas but the biggest problem I have with his proposals is
> > that he argues that people should be rewarded (in teh new economy)
> > according to their contribution not need. This goes against the
> > traditional Anarchist position and to my mind would not ultimately address
> > the fundamental inequalities in society - just thought I'd put that out
> > there.
> >
> >
> >
> > Looking ofrward to seeing everyone on Saturday
> >
> >
> >
> > Comradely
> >
> > Mandy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:49:07 +0200
> >> From: pvh at webbedfeet.co.za
> >> To: iyf-ct at lists.resist.ca
> >> Subject: [Iyf-ct] Z Communications' "Reimagining Society" project
> >>
> >> I'm leery of 'intellectual heavy' projects, but I was just looking at Z
> >> Communications "Reimagining Society" webpage. Basically, Z
> >> Communications
> >> is the WWW presence of Z Magazine, which itself is a "left" ideas
> >> magazine
> >> / project co-ordinated by Michael Albert (of "Participation Economics"
> >> fame). So Z has approached 350 people across the globe for their ideas
> >> of
> >> alternatives. Its a mixed bag of stuff - there are so many ideas out
> >> there, its hard to keep it all straight - but feel free to go read:
> >>
> >> http://www.zmag.org/zparecon/reimaginingsociety.htm
> >>
> >> Peter
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Iyf-ct mailing list
> >> Iyf-ct at lists.resist.ca
> >> https://lists.resist.ca/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/iyf-ct
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos.
> > http://www.microsoft.com/southafrica/windows/windowslive/products/photo-gallery-edit.aspx
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Iyf-ct mailing list
> Iyf-ct at lists.resist.ca
> https://lists.resist.ca/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/iyf-ct
_________________________________________________________________
With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos.
http://www.microsoft.com/southafrica/windows/windowslive/products/photo-gallery-edit.aspx
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:40:27 +0200 (SAST)
From: pvh at webbedfeet.co.za
Subject: [Iyf-ct] [Fwd: RE: Z Communications' "Reimagining Society"
project]
To: iyf-ct at lists.resist.ca
Message-ID: <825a265a524b3477990f35d7ca82069f.squirrel at wfeet.za.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
This darn mailing list mades the default for replies the person who sent
the message, in other words, not the mailing list. So I think Andreas
might have sent a message I didn't see, and Mandy sent this message to me,
not to the whole list, so I'm forwarding it. Anyway, I just changed the
default - just remember, if you want your emails to go to the whole list,
check that they say iyf-ct at lists.resist.ca on the top.
Peter
---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: RE: [Iyf-ct] Z Communications' "Reimagining Society" project
From: "Mandy Moussouris" <mandymoussouris at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, July 21, 2009 10:18 am
To: pvh at webbedfeet.co.za
"In your face" <iyf-ct at lists.resist.ca>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andreas, you are right, it is about effort and Peter's point about how you
calculte effort. Best example of the problem is how you calculate effort
in terms of care work - so how do you calculte the effort of a mother who
has to leave her child and go to work and then come home and do the
washing cooking etc. I agree that there are a lot of interesting and some
useful ideas in Paragon but this issue just does not sit well with my
Anarcho-communist soal :-)
> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 09:55:06 +0200
> From: pvh at webbedfeet.co.za
> To: iyf-ct at lists.resist.ca
> Subject: Re: [Iyf-ct] Z Communications' "Reimagining Society" project
>
> And how to calculate contribution? My problem with Albert is the problem I
> have with all "utopian socialism" - its a schema on paper just waiting to
> be implemented. I've been reading through essays, though, and there's all
> sorts of different ideas out there, reflecting the fact that we face
> multiple sources (mechanisms, levels, not sure what to call 'em exactly)
> of oppression and exploitation.
>
> Having said that, I just discovered this morning that someone in another
> city who I barely know has decided that I'm politically a problem.
> Solidarity, never? *sigh*
>
> Peter
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks Peter,
> >
> >
> >
> > Looks interesting, but I couldn't open any of the esays. Albert generally
> > has interesting ideas but the biggest problem I have with his
proposals is
> > that he argues that people should be rewarded (in teh new economy)
> > according to their contribution not need. This goes against the
> > traditional Anarchist position and to my mind would not ultimately
address
> > the fundamental inequalities in society - just thought I'd put that out
> > there.
> >
> >
> >
> > Looking ofrward to seeing everyone on Saturday
> >
> >
> >
> > Comradely
> >
> > Mandy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:49:07 +0200
> >> From: pvh at webbedfeet.co.za
> >> To: iyf-ct at lists.resist.ca
> >> Subject: [Iyf-ct] Z Communications' "Reimagining Society" project
> >>
> >> I'm leery of 'intellectual heavy' projects, but I was just looking at Z
> >> Communications "Reimagining Society" webpage. Basically, Z
> >> Communications
> >> is the WWW presence of Z Magazine, which itself is a "left" ideas
> >> magazine
> >> / project co-ordinated by Michael Albert (of "Participation Economics"
> >> fame). So Z has approached 350 people across the globe for their ideas
> >> of
> >> alternatives. Its a mixed bag of stuff - there are so many ideas out
> >> there, its hard to keep it all straight - but feel free to go read:
> >>
> >> http://www.zmag.org/zparecon/reimaginingsociety.htm
> >>
> >> Peter
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Iyf-ct mailing list
> >> Iyf-ct at lists.resist.ca
> >> https://lists.resist.ca/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/iyf-ct
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos.
> > http://www.microsoft.com/southafrica/windows/windowslive/products/photo-gallery-edit.aspx
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Iyf-ct mailing list
> Iyf-ct at lists.resist.ca
> https://lists.resist.ca/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/iyf-ct
_________________________________________________________________
With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos.
http://www.microsoft.com/southafrica/windows/windowslive/products/photo-gallery-edit.aspx
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