[IPSM] First Nation Women Prostituted 'in Overwhelming Numbers'

[usman x]

Hi Macho,
Thank you for replying to my post. I think this is a worthwhile discussion.

When I posted this to the IPSM list, I was not really intending to get into
a discussion about whether or not prostitution should be legalized or not,
and if so, in what way. Nor was i meaning to offend anyone. My main reason
for posting this is because I think it is an important point to make that
prostitution effects First Nations women far greatly that anyone else, and
that racism also plays a part in this, as do patriarchy and class. Just as a
side note, this isn't the whole article, which doesnt come out until this
summer i think, so it would've been helpful to have the full article before
discussing Farley's views. I do not really have the time to get into another
big discussion on this issue, but i thought i would try and respond to some
of your concerns below. Towards the end, I also briefly respond to what
Macdonald Stainsby wrote in the other email addressing this (or rather, me)


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Macho Philipovich [mailto:macho at resist.ca]
> Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 12:46 PM
> To: usman x; ipsm-l at lists.resist.ca
> Subject: Re: [IPSM] First Nation Women Prostituted 'in Overwhelming
> Numbers'
>
>
>
> i'm totally uncomfortable with the point of view and message of this
> article by melissa farley.
>
> the article is in support of the "struggle against legalizing prostitution
> in Canada".  i'm not at all excited about seeing sex trade workers become
> watched and regulated by the state, but i'd prefer it to the situation
> now, where many are criminalized, incarcerated, and forced to work in
> areas where they're at severe risk of violence.

In my few years as a profeminist activist, I have never come across any
feminist (either in literature or the feminist activists that I have worked
with) that have advocated greater policing, harassment, incarceration,
criminalization, etc of the sex workers themselves. There is a unanimous
concensus that when one speaks of not legalizing prostitution, one means not
to let the johns, pimps, traffickers, off the hook. If you go to Melissa
Farley's website, you will see that what she advocates is a system based on
what has been done in Sweden, which in no way criminalizes or targets the
prostitutes themselves. This is what she says;

"The 1999 Swedish Law on Prostitution
This law is a brilliant example of how a truly progressive society addresses
prostitution: the law decriminalizes the prostitute but criminalizes
customers, pimps, and traffickers. The Swedish government’s logic is
articulated in this brief article."
http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/c-laws-about-prostitution.html

You can find out more about the Swedish law here:
http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/swedish.html

There is also more information about the Swedish strategy on the Women's
Justice Centre website titled "Why Hasn't Anyone Tried This Before?" at
http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html

Also, the same website that carried the little clip from Farley's upcoming
article has also posted these;

"samedi 19 février 2005
The legalization of prostitution and its impact on trafficking in women and
children
par Richard Poulin, sociologue à l'Université d'Ottawa " at
http://sisyphe.org/article.php3?id_article=1596

and

"dimanche 28 novembre 2004
Decriminalize the prostitutes, not prostitution
par Élaine Audet et Micheline Carrier" at
http://sisyphe.org/article.php3?id_article=1407


> the thing that's most upsetting is that farley and friends are trying to
> influence law and policy about sex work but it doesn't appear that any of
> them are making an effort to find out what people in the sex trade want,
> to offer them services and alternatives, to let them lead the struggle, or
> to really engage with them on any level.

This isnt really true at all. In fact Farley has done an incredible amount
of research talking to people in the industry themselves. Here is a report
titled "Prostitution in Five Countries: Violence and Post-Traumatic Stress
Disorder" that Farley was involved in;
http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/fempsy1.html
Here is the abstract for this report;

"ABSTRACT

We initiated this research in order to address some of the issues that have
arisen in discussions about the nature of prostitution. In particular: is
prostitution just a job or is it a violation of human rights? From the
authors' perspective, prostitution is an act of violence against women; it
is an act which is intrinsically traumatizing to the person being
prostituted. We interviewed 475 people (including women, men and the
transgendered) currently and recently prostituted in five countries (South
Africa, Thailand, Turkey, USA, Zambia). In response to questionnaires which
inquired about current and lifetime history of physical and sexual violence,
what was needed in order to leave prostitution and current symptoms of
post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) we found that violence marked the
lives of these prostituted people. Across countries, 73 percent reported
physical assault in prostitution, 62 percent reported having been raped
since entering prostitution, 67 percent met criteria for a diagnosis of
PTSD. On average, 92 percent stated that they wanted to leave prostitution.
We investigated effects of race, and whether the person was prostituted on
the street or in a brothel. Despite limitations of sample selection, these
findings suggest that the harm of prostitution is not culture-bound.
Prostitution is discussed as violence and human rights violation."

Here is another study that Farley participated in that also directly talked
with prostitutes, is titled "Prostitution, Violence Against Women, and
Posttraumatic Stress Disorder" and can be found at
http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/ProsViolPosttrauStress.html
Here is the abstract for this report;

"Abstract
One hundred and thirty people working as prostitutes in San Francisco were
interviewed regarding the extent of violence in their lives and symptoms of
posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Fifty-seven percent reported that they
had been sexually assaulted as children and 49% reported that they had been
physically assaulted as children.

As adults in prostitution, 82% had been physically assaulted; 83% had been
threatened with a weapon; 68% had been raped while working as prostitutes;
and 84% reported current or past homelessness.

We differentiated the types of lifetime violence as childhood sexual
assault; childhood physical abuse; rape in prostitution; and other
(non-rape) physical assault in prostitution. PTSD severity was significantly
associated with the total number of types of lifetime violence (r = .21, p =
.02); with childhood physical abuse (t = 2.97, p = .004); rape in adult
prostitution (Student's t = 2.77, p = .01); and the total number of times
raped in prostitution (Kruskal-Wallace chi square = 13.51, p = .01). Of the
130 people interviewed, 68% met DSM III-R criteria for a diagnosis of PTSD.
Eighty-eight percent of these respondents stated that they wanted to leave
prostitution, and described what they needed in order to escape."

Other research conducted by feminists that are against
prostitution/pornography and that either have been involved in the sex trade
themselves, or base their research on the views and experiences of women in
the industry are far too extensive for me to list here. Just as an example,
Julie Bindel lists just some of these here;
http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/AF8653FD-9FC4-4DE6-8238-CE629C7D6C3E/
0/LdancingReport.pdf. (specifically pages 25-26 and bibliography, where
there are also direct links to some of these studies). Also, Bindels study
itself also comprehensively documents the experiences of women in the
industry.
Heres another study titeld "Sisters Speak Out: The Lives and Needs of
Prostituted Women in Chicago" and can be found at
http://www.impactresearch.org/documents/sistersexecutivesummary.pdf
This study closely examines the lives of women in prostitution. The study
has 12 prostitution survivors conduct in-depth interviews with 222 women
representing various segments of the prostitution industry throughout
Chicago.

More recently, the book titled "Not For Sale : Feminists Resisting
Prostitution and Pornography" by Rebecca Whisnant (Editor), and Christine
Stark (Editor) also makes some of the same points, with some of its
contributors previously involved in , and others having talked to and
incorporated the experiences of women and children in
prostitution/pornography. Here is an excellent review of the book titled
"The Twin Towers of Fallacy, The Left, Prostitution, and Pornography" by
Stan Goff;
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/pipermail/a-list/2004-November/032298.html . Note
that one of the editors, Christine Stark, is a member of the Minnesota
Indian Women's Sexual Assault Coalition. Here is a quote from the book that
is salient to this discussion, and strongly represents my own beliefs;


"Much of feminist theory and activism against pornography and prostitution
has been and continues to be developed by formerly prostituted women, who
are not judging or otherwise maligning prostituted people, but rather
exposing pimps and rapists, the sex industry as an institution of male
violence and racial and economic privilege
" (Stark, Stark & Whisnant, p.
278)


> all they're doing is adding to
> sex worker stereotypes of metal health problems, drug addiction, and
> sexual abuse histories.

There is an overwhelming amount of data, information, surveys, studies,
reports that show this is the norm, not the exception. What evidence do you
have that suggests otherwise?

Here is what Goff says on this issue;

"Pornography and prostitution – in the material world – are overwhelmingly
not ‘choices.’ They are vast, exploitative, patriarchal-capitalist
industries, largely violent, very lucrative, controlled by women-hating men,
and destructive of the women (and children) who are victimized by them. Most
of the women who are prostituted (including those who are used to produce
pornography) are poor, disproportionately from oppressed groups, frequently
drug-addicted, the vast majority showing clear signs of post-traumatic
stress disorder, and wanting out. The majority suffered from sexual abuse as
children, and many were first ‘turned out’ as minors. Many new prostitutes
are ‘broken in’ through gang rape, and constantly abused by pimps.

These claims are based on extensive research, not the anecdotal interviews
with industry spokespersons suggested to Chyng Sun by Nina Hartley. The
anthology, Not For Sale – Feminist Resisting Prostitution and Pornography,
edited by Christine Stark and Rebecca Whisnant, cites this research
extensively, for anyone who is interested in actually studying this
predatory industry." [Full: http://stangoff.com/index.php?p=2]


A recent report for example, concluded that prostitution is the largest
sector of *forced labour*;
http://www.hrcberkeley.org/research/hiddenslaves03.html
[Clip]

"Prostitution and Sex Services

The data from our press and service provider surveys suggest that
prostitution is the sector in which the largest amount of forced labor
occurs in the United States. It appears that the trafficking of women for
prostitution and children for sexual exploitation are

highly profitable activities that are often tied to organized crime;

driven by a demand for cheap sex services and child sex; and

crimes that can be linked to existing migration patterns and immigrant
community infrastructures that have emerged from the lack of safe and legal
means of migration to the United States.

Although little research exists into the connections between forced
prostitution and existing "sex markets" in the United States, it stands to
reason that these markets may encourage forced prostitution and the
commercial sexual exploitation of children. These markets comprise a variety
of activities including prostitution, pornography, striptease and erotic
dancing, and peep shows, and they sometimes are under the control of
organized crime networks.14 While prostitution is illegal in most states of
the U.S., striptease is legal in many states, as is the sale of pornography,
which is pervasive and constitutionally protected. For organized crime
networks, the combination of legal and illegal sexual services is normally
part of a larger portfolio of products and services that includes drugs and
drug trafficking as well.

The connection between the demand for sex services and the sexual
exploitation of women and children in the United States has not been
researched in a comprehensive and conclusive way. We lack quantitative data
on the magnitude of the demand for sex services, the organization of the sex
service economy, and its regulation. Despite this paucity of information,
there appears to be little question that traffickers would not be engaged in
this lucrative trade if a considerable demand for it did not exist.

Our data suggest that sex traffickers usually recruit victims of their own
nationality or ethnic background. Sex trafficking appears to be closely
linked to migrant smuggling enterprises run by Asian, Mexican, and Eastern
European organized crime networks, among others. Some of these operations
feed victims into situations of forced labor. For eighteen months, beginning
in August 1996, for example, the Cadena family trafficked twenty-five to
forty women and girls from their hometown in Vera Cruz and forced them to
work as prostitutes servicing migrant workers in the United States. It
appears that the Cadenas targeted the migrant worker community by design.
First, they recognized and promoted a demand for cheap sex services in
communities of migrant workers and then supplied it. Second, they chose
remote farms where the migrant workers were isolated and hidden from law
enforcement and unlikely to be visited by inspection teams from the
Department of Labor. Finally, they were confident that neither the women nor
the men, most of whom were undocumented immigrants, would report the
operators to the authorities for fear of arrest and deportation.
Full Report "Hidden Slaves: Forced Labor in the United States";
http://www.hrcberkeley.org/research/hiddenslaves.html


Also, I think there is a very significant difference in what passes in
soceity as truth, but is actually myth, especially when it comes to the
perceptions of women and sexuality that men have. For example, there is a
big difference in what women regard as sexual coercion, and what men regard
as sexual coercion. Another case in point is the myth prevalent among many
men that women actually enjoy being raped, beaten, dominated, etc.

>
> i'm sure these folks mean well.  one of the linked articles claims they
> don't want to criminalize sex workers, just pimps and johns.  if they
> spoke to anyone working in the sex trade, i'm sure they'd discover that
> when johns are criminalized, it only pushes street workers into more
> hidden areas where they're more susceptible to violence.

What evidence do you have to prove this?

>From the information that I have come across, the opposite is actually the
case. It is not the prostitutes that benefit from this, but johns, pimps,
and organized crime. Richard poulin, for example, states;
(Full: http://sisyphe.org/article.php3?id_article=1596)

"In my book, La mondialisation des industries du sexe [the globalization of
the sex
industries] I show that violence is intrinsically interwoven with
prostitution, that it is an essential element of it. While the conditions
under which prostitution is carried out can undoubtedly exacerbate its
inherent violence, it is primarily the social relationships which underpin
prostitution that are the fundamental cause of this violence. The pimps'
recruiting methods are not really the simple accumulation of private
"abusive" behaviours, but occur within a structured system which requires
violence. The violence committed by a substantial number of customers
derives from the fact that the mercenary nature of the transaction confers
upon them a position of domination.

Prostitution is ontologically a form of violence. It feeds on violence and
in turn amplifies it. Abduction, rape, submission - there are submission
camps in a number of European countries, not only in the Balkans and in
Central Europe, but also in Italy, where submission is called "schooling" -
terror and murder are still the midwives and outriders of this industry ;
they are essentially not only for market development, but also for the
"manufacture" of the "goods" as they contribute to making prostituted people
"functional" - this industry demands total availability of the body. A study
of street prostituted people in England established that 87% of them had
been victims of violence during the past 12 months ; 43% were suffering the
consequences of serious physical abuse. (4) A research study in Chicago
showed that 21.4% of women working as escorts and exotic dancers had been
raped more than 10 times. An American study in Minneapolis showed that 78%
of prostituted people had been victims of rape by pimps and customers, on
average, 49 times a year. 49% had been the victims of abduction and had been
transported from one state to another and 27% had been mutilated. (5) I
could multiply the data generated by field studies."

Here is his evidence of why legaliazation causes more harm;

"Legislation, expansion of prostitution and trafficking in women and
children

The promoters of the legalization of prostitution in Australia (24)
maintained that such a step would solve such problems as the control by
organized crime of the sex industry, the deregulated expansion of that
industry and the violence to which street prostituted people are subjected.
In fact, the legislation has solved none of these problems : on the
contrary, it has given rise to new ones, including child prostitution, which
has increased significantly since legalization. Brothels are expanding (25)
and the number of illegal brothels exceeds the number of legal ones.
Although there was a belief that legalization would make possible control of
the sex industry, the illegal industry is now "out of control". Police in
Victoria estimate that there are 400 illegal brothels as against 100 legal
ones. (26) Trafficking in women and children from other countries has
increased significantly. (27) The legalization of prostitution in some parts
of Australia has thus resulted in a net growth of the industry. One of the
results has been the trafficking in women and children to "supply" legal and
illegal brothels. The "sex entrepreneurs" have difficulty recruiting women
locally to supply an expanding industry, and women from trafficking are more
vulnerable and more profitable. The traffickers sell such women to the
owners of Victoria's brothels for US $15,000 each. They are held in
servitude by this debt. The weekly profits derived from the trafficking in
women in Australia by the prostitution industry is estimated at $1 million.
(28)

In Germany, the legislation that entered into force on January 1, 2002
abolished the concept of "immoral activity". The hundreds of thousands of
prostituted people who are German (or married to Germans) now have a status,
that of "independent or salaried workers with a work contract" with the
"bosses" of the eros centers. Prostitution is allowed and regulated ; it has
to some extent become classified as a "profession like any other". In
addition, all businesses with 15 or more employees, including brothels, are
obligated to hire apprentices on pain of financial penalties if they fail to
do so. What thinking person would encourage any adolescent to become an
apprentice in an eros center ? Women who perceive unemployment insurance
benefits and who work in restoration or bars have to accept henceforth job
propositions in brothels ; if they don't accept they can lose their
benefits. In 2001, the International Organization for Migration (IOM)
estimates that almost half of the women who are victims of trafficking for
the purpose of prostitution in Germany have entered the country legally.
(29)

Some 50,000 women from the Dominican Republic are working in prostitution
abroad, particularly in the Netherlands, where at one time they accounted
for 70% of the occupants of Amsterdam's 400 prostitutes' "windows". Between
75% to 85% of prostituted people in the red light districts of Germany are
of foreign origin. Approximately 40% of Zurich's prostituted people come
from the third world. The number of brothels has doubled since the partial
legalization of prostitution in Switzerland.

The legalization of prostitution thus generates a colossal expansion of this
industry and of the trafficking which is its corollary.

An "abolitionist" country like France, with a population estimated at 61
million, has half as many prostituted people on its territory as does a
small country like the Netherlands (16 million) and 20 times fewer than a
country like Germany, with a population of around 82.4 million. In Sweden,
where legislation has been passed to prosecute the customers and to
decriminalize the activities of prostituted people, it is estimated that
there are only about 100 prostituted people in the country for around 9
million inhabitants. In the capital, Stockholm, the number of street
prostitutes has dropped by two-thirds and the number of customers has
dropped by 80%. In addition, "Switzerland is the only country in Western
Europe not to have been submerged by the tidal wave of girls from Eastern
Europe following the fall of the Berlin wall". (30) In neighbouring Finland,
it is estimated that 15,000 to 17,000 people become victims of trafficking
for the purpose of prostitution annually.

The most recent research, carried out by London Metropolitan University, at
the request of the Scottish government and published in 2004 on its
government website, "confirms what several prior studies have shown, namely
that the "sex industries", sexual tourism, child prostitution and violence
against prostituted people have increased markedly in all the countries that
have liberalized their prostitution laws and turned pimps into respectable
businessmen."

Government policies are accordingly a decisive factor in the proliferation
of prostitution industries and its corollary, trafficking.

Policies favourable to the legalization of prostitution and trafficking for
the purpose of prostitution form part of an international offensive, mounted
by the countries that advocate regulation, against the abolitionist
Convention adopted by the UN in 1949, the Convention for the Suppression of
Human Trafficking and the Exploitation of the Prostitution of Others. These
countries have introduced in international or regional conferences
(especially in Europe) the concepts of "forced prostitution" and "forced
trafficking" in contrast to "voluntary prostitution" and "voluntary or
consenting trafficking"."

I also think Élaine Audet and Micheline Carrier make some excellent points;
(Full; http://sisyphe.org/article.php3?id_article=1407)

As these groups, we refuse that the prostitutes be treated like criminals,
that they be harassed and subjected to violence, that they be deprived of
care and services, while the persons really responsible, the pimps and the
customers, are rarely interfered with by police services. However, contrary
to these groups which do not fight against prostitution but want to improve
the conditions of "sex work", we consider that prostitution is not a
"profession". And that to decriminalize prostitution will not put an end to
the "stigmatization" of or to the violence against the prostitute. This did
not occur in the countries which liberalized their laws on prostitution and
we do not see why it would be otherwise in Canada.

Furthermore, the complete decriminalization of prostitution would imply
decriminalizing the activities of the customers "prostituers", pimps and
traffickers. In the countries which made this choice, the pimps, recycled
into respectable businessmen, become wealthy in full legality, at the
expense of prostitutes renamed as "sex workers", whom they exploit to the
hilt. The search for profits requires the recruitment of an increasingly
young and numerous labour, to answer the insatiable needs of the
"customers". It leads to the international trafficking of women for the
purposes of prostitution, linking inseparably the fate of the local
prostitutes to that of their "imported" colleagues. The recent scandal of
visas granted by Immigration Canada to foreign nude dancers, doomed to be
integrated into the Canadian prostitution system, is a perfect illustration
of this situation. Studies confirm the spectacular increase of the
trafficking of women and children in countries which legalized or
decriminalized prostitution.

Prostitution is a form of violence, of exploitation and of alienation. It
undermines the dignity and the integrity of the individual. It results
mainly from sexual oppression and socioeconomic disparities, which strike
first at women and children. It seems to us absurd and irresponsible to seek
the decriminalization of a system which crushes thousands of human lives,
under the pretext that current laws do not bring forth the elimination of
prostitution. Since when do laws eliminate crimes like rape or incest ? Does
that mean that we should decriminalize these acts ? Who would dare demand
the legalization of slavery or torture, as a way to control their
unacceptable consequences ?

Decriminalizing prostitution raises important social, ethical, economic and
political issues which far exceed immediate individual interests. How can
one speak about "consent" and about "choice" when the average age of entry
into prostitution is 13, when everyone knows that it is economic and
emotional misery which drives more and more women and children to sell their
body, as well as the brutal measures of training to which pimps, traffickers
and criminalized gangs are subjecting them to ? Decriminalization of
prostitution cannot constitute a true alternative to the increasing misery
of prostitutes.

Decriminalizing prostitution would also result in disastrous effects on the
relationship between men and women and on the image of women, by giving the
impression that all women can be the object of prostitution. What influence
would the fact of granting prostitution the status of a legitimate
profession also have on young people ? Would prostitution be proposed to
them as a career choice or an alternative to unemployment - prostitution for
the girls and pimping for the boys ? Would it be then necessary to offer a
training in this "profession", as is already done in countries which have
decriminalized prostitution ? As for us, we refuse this simplistic vision
which would result in submitting the body and sexuality to the logic of the
market.

In industrial nations such as Canada, more than 90 % of prostitutes are
under the control of pimps. According to a 2002 report published in Québec
by the Conseil du statut de la femme (Council on the status of women), 92 %
of the female prostitutes would like to leave the underworld of prostitution
if they could. "To get out of it", says the ex-prostitute Agnès Laury,
"requires the unwavering will not to return to the street, to get help and
to totally sever the ties to the underworld". In their respective fields of
competence, the governments of Canada and Quebec could require from the
beneficiaries of grants intended for the defence of the rights of
prostitutes the formal commitment to fight against prostitution and to help
the prostitutes to leave this environment by providing them with incentives
(training, reinsertion, grant, etc.). The different levels of government
should also take immediate measures so that women victims of sexual
trafficking can be offered the choice between refugee status or the
voluntary return to their country of origin.

In 2001, the number of prostitutes in the world is estimated at 40 millions,
75 % of them aged between 13 and 25. Every year, about four million new
women and children fall victim to the world trafficking for the purpose of
prostitution. We urge Canada, based on its values of equality and respect
for human rights [SIC], to let itself be inspired by the model of Sweden,
which
succeeded in slowing down the expansion of prostitution without
criminalizing the prostitutes.


>
> please folks, it's important to support your local sex workers, but be
> careful that what you're doing is decreasing the violence, not increasing
> it.
>
> -macho
>

macho, on this issue we both definitly agree, that it is the safety of sex
workers that is most important here. But I think its also important to
remember that the sex trade effects not sex workers only, but women as a
whole, not to mention children, and men as well.

I wasnt really intending to write a reply as long as this has become. But i
would like to add one more important point, with reference to men. This sex
industry is the third biggest industry in the world [after arms and drugs],
and it is overwhelming men that consume it. What can men do to end sexual
exploitation of women and children? Is it "cool" for men to sexually
objectify women at strip clubs or through pornography? Are men who take
advantage of the desperation of prostitutes when it comes to issues like
poverty or homelessness, and treat them like meat be let off the hook?
Should men who take advantage of womens histories of abuse and violence, and
further add to it, be encouraged? if being a prostitute is something
politicaly empowering for women, are the men who sleep with them
pro-feminists? should we give them a medal? should we have brothels at every
street corner? if we did, would the racial make up of these brothels be
representative of the actual racial break up in soceity, or would certain
women have it worse? are beavis and butthead pro-feminists, or sexist?

I think Robert Jensen poses a lot of good questions for men in "Just A John?
Pornography and Men's Choices";
[Full: http://www.lefthook.org/Culture/Jensen030905.html]

"I do, however, take it as my place to talk to men. I take it as a
political/moral responsibility to engage in critical self-reflection and be
accountable for my behavior, at the individual and the collective level. For
men, the question is not about women's choices. It's about men's choices. Do
you want to participate in this system in which women are sold for sexual
pleasure, whether it's in prostitution, pornography, strip bars, or any
other aspect of the sex industry? Do you want to live in a world in which
some people are bought and sold for the sexual pleasure of others?

When one asks such questions, one of the first things one will hear is:
These are important issues, but we shouldn't make men feel guilty about
this. Why not? I agree that much of the guilt people feel -- rooted in
attempts to repress human sexuality that unfortunately are part of the
cultural and theological history of our society -- is destructive. But guilt
also can be a healthy emotional and intellectual response to the world and
one's actions in it.

Johns should feel guilty when they buy women. Guilt is a proper response to
an act that is unjust. When we do things that are unjust, we should feel
guilty. Guilt can be a sign that we have violated our own norms. It can be a
part of a process of ending the injustice. Guilt can be healthy, if it is
understood in political, not merely religious or psychological, terms.

Buying women is wrong not because of a society's repressive moral code or
its effects on an individual's psychological process. It is wrong because it
hurts people. It creates a world in which people get hurt. And the people
who get hurt the most are women and children, the people with the least
amount of power. When you create a class that can be bought and sold, the
people in that group will inevitably be treated as lesser, as available to
be controlled and abused.

The way out of this is not church or therapy, though you may engage in
either or both of those practices for various reasons. The way out of being
a john is political. The way out is feminism. I don't mean feminism as a
superficial exercise in identifying a few "women's issues" that men can help
with. I mean feminism as an avenue into what Karl Marx called "the ruthless
criticism of the existing order, ruthless in that it will shrink neither
from its own discoveries, nor from conflict with the powers that be."

We need to engage in some ruthless criticism. Let's start not just with
pornography, but with sex more generally. One of those discoveries, I think,
is not only that men often are johns, but that the way in which johns use
women sexually is a window into other aspects of our sexual and intimate
lives as well. For many men, sex is often a place where we both display and
reinforce our power over women. By that, I don't mean that all men at all
times use sex that way all the time, but that a pattern of such
relationships is readily visible in this society. Women deal with it every
day, and at some level most men understand it."


Finally, i just wanted to address what Macdonald Stainsby claims;

> This debate needs to be nipped in the bud;
>
> Unfortunately, Mr X has been posting anti-sex worker materials for quite
> some time, on many lists.

This is an interesting accusation. Perhaps Macdonald Stainsby would like to
include some evidence? Anyways, i invite people to judge for themselves if
what i say, or those i quote, is indeed, anti-sex worker like he claims.

> His point of view is that "Andrea Dworkin is
> the Karl Marx of feminism" (direct quote).

Yes, i did say that, although here, like that, it is totally out of context,
and it doesnt really go well on its own, plus i cant take credit for it
entirely, since i was quoting someone from a women's studies class. Anyways,
if you must bring up my views, then i invite people to judge for themselves.
There is feminism beyond Dworkin. There is women of colour feminism for
example. Here is a list I moderate
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/margins-to-centre

I did not post what i did to detract from the indigenous focus of the list.
Prostitution and sexual exploitation are very much First Nations issues, as
well as important for all people of colour. Prostitution effects women and
children of colour the most. [example:
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/pipermail/a-list/2004-December/032690.html]

As for Macdonald Stainsby's proclomation that this debate be nipped in the
bud, and that people not engage in this debate, well he must realize that it
has been a long time since people of colour stopped jumping when whitey
commands it, and i think its upto the people on this list to decide that,
not him. I find it interesting that for all his jumping up and down yelling
"Dworkonites! Rape Reliefers!" he offers no evidence, no facts, no substance
to back up anything of what he says at all. But if no one thinks this issue
is relevant here then obviously, I wont harp on it.

As for this;

> it is that the latent sex-worker-phobic
> approach of the poster will overshadow the important, immediate need to
> discuss how to make these streets as safe as possible: this will not
> include legalization as an option to these folks, who are guided by the
> organization Rape Relief in ideology, & who will then tell us that
> legalization/decriminalization of the sex-trade (and all of the
> destigmatization of this horribly marginalized community that would come
> with) would lead to yet-MORE violence.

I am amazed at the influence that rape relief has been gifted here. If only
they knew! If only they knew that robert jensen obeys them only! Melissa
Farley, Richard Poulin, Élaine Audet, Micheline Carrier, Stan Goff, the
authours of "Not for sale" have all been brainwashed by rape relief!
frederick douglass and w.e.b. dubios travelled forward in time to assimilate
rape relief ideology! The nation of sweden is under rape relief's thumb!
rape relief took over the women's studies department at UBC! Castro is
actually a covert rape relief operative!


---------------------
"What would Mr. Bush call the tens of millions of tourists who visit the
United States every year where casinos, gambling dens, areas of male and
female prostitution and many other activities related to pornography and sex
abound, none of which exist in Cuba and all of which are alien to the
revolutionary culture of our people?

What would he call the tens of millions of Europeans who visit Spain every
year where many pages in the papers are used to advertising the names,
addresses, the physical, cultural and intellectual characteristics and the
specialities and individual gifts to suit all tastes of those who exercise
the age-old profession of prostitution? Would he call the US and Spanish
tourist industries sex tourism?

None of the aforementioned activities take place in Cuba. However, in the
fevered and fundamentalist mind of the all-powerful gentleman in the White
House and in those of his most intimate advisors, Cuba must now be "saved"
not only from "tyranny", Cuban children must now be "saved from sexual
exploitation and trafficking in persons" "the world must be freed from this
dreadful problem which takes place 90 miles away from the United States".

Has no one told him that in Cuba before the triumph of the revolution in
1959 about 100,000 women were directly or indirectly involved in
prostitution for reasons of poverty, discrimination and lack of work and
that the Revolution educated these women and found them jobs, and outlawed
the so-called "tolerance zones" which existed in the pseudo-republic and the
neo-colony installed by the United States?"

 - Fidel Catsro

http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/margins-to-centre