[GSA Council] Two thirds majority "of members present"

[Jon Summers]

I'm not enjoying this back-and-forth of emails, which seems to be taking on
a nasty tone. I have already registered my opinion. Please do not address
any further replies to the entire mailing list.
 On Dec 19, 2014 4:31 PM, "korosh" <k_kooche at encs.concordia.ca> wrote:

> Krelos maybe I did not expressed my question in a right way.
>
>
>
> You are a councilor since summer almost 8 month and in these 8 months we
> passed many motions needed majority voting.
>
> “why you did not bring up your concern before when you was voting for
> those motions and now doing that for your own motion?”
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Korosh
>
>
>
> *From:* kokokrkrkero at yahoo.com [mailto:kokokrkrkero at yahoo.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, December 19, 2014 4:20 PM
> *To:* korosh; Keroles Riad; 'Jon Summers'
> *Cc:* Gsaconcordia at lists.resist.ca
> *Subject:* Re: [GSA Council] Two thirds majority "of members present"
>
>
>
> My first paragraph did address that.. I DID bring it up. Sigh
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
> ------------------------------
>
> *From: *"korosh" <k_kooche at encs.concordia.ca>
>
> *Date: *Fri, 19 Dec 2014 16:04:52 -0500
>
> *To: *<k_riad at encs.concordia.ca>; 'Jon Summers'<jsummers6 at gmail.com>
>
> *Cc: *<Gsaconcordia at lists.resist.ca>
>
> *Subject: *RE: [GSA Council] Two thirds majority "of members present"
>
>
>
> “Can I ask Krelos that at that time why he did not brought up this issue
>
> and now he is proposing it?”  you did not address my questions.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Keroles Riad [mailto:k_riad at encs.concordia.ca
> <k_riad at encs.concordia.ca>]
> *Sent:* Friday, December 19, 2014 3:31 PM
> *To:* korosh; 'Jon Summers'
> *Cc:* Gsaconcordia at lists.resist.ca
> *Subject:* Re: [GSA Council] Two thirds majority "of members present"
>
>
>
> I did bring it up after the motion but Gretchen wanted me to find texts as
> to why it is confusing, and that is why I needed about 3 hours after the
> meeting to do some research
>
> 4 people voted yes 2 people voted no. That is 2 thirds.. Issue is when you
> count abstentions as no votes too then it is problematic
>
> There are many motions that pass with 3 pple voting yes with many more
> abstaining and still pass. So this rule with abstention counting ONLY apply
> to bylaws changes. I don't think THAT was clear. Def wasn't clear to me and
> it seems that it wasn't to Jon and isabelle. And I suspect there are more
> pple
>
> Thanks
> Keroles Riad
> Research assistant and INDI masters student
> B.Eng Mechanical Engineering
> Laboratory for the Physics of Advanced Materials
> Department of Mechanical & Industrial Engineering
> Concordia University
> 1455 de Maisonneuve Blvd. West
> Montreal, Quebec
> Canada H3G 1M8
> Ph: 1-514-476-3686
>
> Follow me
> @Kerologist
> ------------------------------
>
> *From: *"korosh" <k_kooche at encs.concordia.ca>
>
> *Date: *Fri, 19 Dec 2014 15:22:08 -0500
>
> *To: *'Jon Summers'<jsummers6 at gmail.com>; 'Keroles Riad'<
> k_riad at encs.concordia.ca>
>
> *Cc: *<Gsaconcordia at lists.resist.ca>
>
> *Subject: *RE: [GSA Council] Two thirds majority "of members present"
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> I don’t see the reason for confusion it is the same procedure as before,
>
> we vote count the number of all in favor, opposed and abstentions then
>
> If # in favor is greater than opposition it will carries. In case of
> majority that
>
> # in favor is not only should be greater but also should be equal to the
> 2/3 of voters.
>
>
>
> We already voted on bunch of motions like this before as an example
> executive bursary policy.
>
> Can I ask Krelos that at that time why he did not brought up this issue
>
> and now he is proposing it?
>
>
>
> By the way there is no need to revote for that issue but it is councilors
> right to send the same motion again
>
> and it could be included in the next council meeting agenda so if you want
> it there again send it again for next meeting.
>
> it will need 2/3 as it was needed before and councilors can vote on it.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Korosh Koochekian Sabor
>
>
>
> *From:* Gsaconcordia [mailto:gsaconcordia-bounces at lists.resist.ca
> <gsaconcordia-bounces at lists.resist.ca>] *On Behalf Of *Jon Summers
> *Sent:* Friday, December 19, 2014 2:14 PM
> *To:* Keroles Riad
> *Cc:* Gsaconcordia at lists.resist.ca
> *Subject:* Re: [GSA Council] Two thirds majority "of members present"
>
>
>
> Hi Gretchen and Keroles,
>
>
>
> I was confused by this, too. I think a re-vote on this issue at the next
> Council meeting might be appropriate.
>
>
>
> Jon
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 10:18 AM, Keroles Riad <k_riad at encs.concordia.ca>
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I think the bylaws refer to the general assembly. Anyways, even if I
> concede that the text says that it is all members present at council. I
> don't think that this was clear during voting that abstention is an
> effective no vote (obviously wasn't clear to me and I doubt it was clear to
> everyone else), so what I propose is to re do the vote next council after
> you clearly state that abstentions are practically no votes.
>
> Does that sound reasonable?
> Kero
>
> Thanks
> Keroles Riad
> Research assistant and INDI masters student
> B.Eng Mechanical Engineering
> Laboratory for the Physics of Advanced Materials
> Department of Mechanical & Industrial Engineering
> Concordia University
> 1455 de Maisonneuve Blvd. West
> Montreal, Quebec
> Canada H3G 1M8
> Ph: 1-514-476-3686
>
> Follow me
> @Kerologist
> ------------------------------
>
> *From: *gretchen k <gbayou at gmail.com>
>
> *Date: *Fri, 19 Dec 2014 10:10:16 -0500
>
> *To: *Keroles Riad<k_riad at encs.concordia.ca>
>
> *Cc: *Gsaconcordia at lists.resist.ca<Gsaconcordia at lists.resist.ca>
>
> *Subject: *Re: Two thirds majority "of members present"
>
>
>
> hey keroles and Councillors--
>
> thanks for the link keroles.
>
> as for the GSA bylaws, the quote i inserted in the subject is impt to
> recall, see *21.3* on amending the bylaws: "Any Motion to amend the
> Bylaws must be adopted by a two third (2/3) majority of the members
> present at the Assembly. Any amendment to the Bylaws shall take effect
> once adopted by the General Assembly of members."
>
> so at council and the GA, when amending the bylaws the tally of the vote
> is *of the members present*. last night's vote re 6.1 that resulted in 4
> - for, 2 - opposed, and 4 - abstaining did not receive a two-thirds vote
> and thus did not pass.
>
> the section you forwarded also states this, but in a confusing way. i
> think the GSA bylaws state clearly that to adopt the motion you need a vote
> of the members present. voting to abstain in this case does count towards
> the tally of two-thirds, but is recorded as an abstention.
>
>
>
> hope this helps.
>
>
>
> --gretchen
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 1:37 AM, Keroles Riad <k_riad at encs.concordia.ca>
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> In Question 6 on the official Roberts rules site (
> http://www.robertsrules.com/faq.html):
>
>
>
> *Question 6:*
> *Do abstention votes count?*
>
> *Answer:*
> The phrase “abstention votes” is an oxymoron, an abstention being a
> refusal to vote. To abstain means to refrain from voting, and, as a
> consequence, there can be no such thing as an “abstention vote.”
>
> In the usual situation, *where either a majority vote or **a two-thirds
> vote **is required, abstentions have absolutely no effect on the outcome
> of the vote since what is required is either a majority or two thirds of
> the votes cast.* On the other hand, if the vote required is a majority or
> two thirds of the members *present*, or a majority or two thirds of the
> entire membership, an abstention will have the same effect as a “no” vote.
> Even in such a case, however, an abstention is not a vote and is not
> counted as a vote. [RONR (11th ed.), p. 400, ll. 7-12; p. 401, ll. 8-11; p.
> 403, ll. 13-24; see also p. 66 of RONRIB.]
>
>
>
> Thanks
> Keroles Riad
> Research assistant and INDI masters student
> B.Eng Mechanical Engineering
> Laboratory for the Physics of Advanced Materials
> Department of Mechanical & Industrial Engineering
> Concordia University
> 1455 de Maisonneuve Blvd. West
> Montreal, Quebec
> Canada H3G 1M8
> Ph: 1-514-476-3686
>
> Follow me
> @Kerologist
>
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>
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>
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