[FreeGeek] impromptu irc-chat on the idea of Boards

[David Repa]

--> You are now talking on #freegeek
<fuzzybunny> true eno9ugh
 hey there!
 you made it
<iamturnip> well god damn that was hard
<iamturnip> so we arew here to discuss something rather important
<fuzzybunny> but then
 so am i
  heh
<iamturnip> and
<humble> a whois gives your IP address
  whois me compared to each other
<iamturnip> how i could possibly be any worse a speller
<fuzzybunny> actually this is all insecure to anybody who cares
<fuzzybunny> type faster iamturnip
<humble> anyways... let's CHAT dammit!
<fuzzybunny> we are dammit!
<humble> heh
<iamturnip> co-op vs. non profit
<fuzzybunny> yep
 coop is sexy
<iamturnip> ifny wanted in on it
<fuzzybunny> i want in on everything
<humble> you ssocciety v. co-op
<fuzzybunny> thatʻs the curse & the blessing
<iamturnip> i suppose this idea came up from my unhappiness over boards
<fuzzybunny> coop is also potentially subversive
 well, but also the "danger" inherent in boards
<humble> sorry to disappoint but co-ops have boards too
<iamturnip> thanks yes thats what i meant to say
  ohh well what the hell!
 well thanks for coming out everyone
<fuzzybunny> & what is maybe weird from an anarcho-tastic viewpoint
  hehe
 humble: tell me more about that
<iamturnip> quickiest meting in lefty history
<fuzzybunny> how does a coop work?
 do they have elections too?
<humble> heh... i completely sympathize with the desire to create
something that's not the usual
 yes... they have elections too
<iamturnip> hmmm
<fuzzybunny> well, itʻs not innovation per say, i didnʻt say that right
  itʻs more that we shouldnʻt just do something b/c itʻs usually done
a certain way
<humble> but, BUT... it's still all up to uss to figure out:
<iamturnip> well i guess its not a point to debate like thought..but
it would be nice to continue tochat like this if that is ok with
everyone?
<humble> what is a member
<fuzzybunny> we shold do it cuz itʻs the best thing to do
<humble> what rules must we follow in conducting our "business"
 what's the best thing to do?
<fuzzybunny> yes
<iamturnip> i think we should run with the non profit as there is
already somethign work with there
 striking out with a coop might prove to be extra work
<fuzzybunny> like i was saying to david today that weʻre at the point
where weʻre still configuring whoʻs going to self-direct/be long term
imp to fgvan
<fuzzybunny> iamturnip: yes
<iamturnip> scott you seem comfy with a non profit eh?
<fuzzybunny> sorry long term committment
 not imp or elf or whatever
<iamturnip> dont forget dwarfs we must be inclusive
<humble> I'm comfortable with a registered society for FreeGeek Van, yes
<fuzzybunny> iʻm the kind of person who likes to know all about the
possibilites before we choose one
 so thatʻs why itʻs good to find out that coops need boards too
<iamturnip> agreed
<fuzzybunny> humble: what can we do to make sure that the board
remains responsive to the needs of the org?
 & the staff?
<iamturnip> humble: you mentioned earler about putting the paper work
in after i get back from pdx?
  hmm one thing at a time here
<fuzzybunny> iamturnip: naw irc you can do evthing at once
<fuzzybunny> backscroll rules
<humble> well... arrange to elect board members that you want to work
with and who will/can work togther
<fuzzybunny> like fix the election huh, thatʻs what i thot
 ;)
<iamturnip> sort of like the US gov't love it
<humble> david: actually i was talking about meeting with Matt after
you get back
<fuzzybunny> thatʻs a good idea
 fresh from the fray
<iamturnip> humble: ah ok..might make sense...depends on print time maybe?
<fuzzybunny> more focus & info
 straight comes out weekly
 whatʻs the rush?
<humble> yeah, esp. if we're going to do the story around needing a
space and publish your phone number
<iamturnip> fuzzybunny: no rush...any more focus I am going to need new glassess
<fuzzybunny> iamturnip: isnʻt your number changing?
<iamturnip> fuzzybunny: trying to keep the same number just jostle
around between mike and telus
<fuzzybunny> ah
<iamturnip> humble: ok lets talk to matt after i am back..we might
also know if we are incorp by then?
<humble> yeah... let's wait until you get back
 agreed
<fuzzybunny> humble: do you think itʻs worth discussing a radically
different dynamic that that which is laid down by our friendly
neighbourhood govʻt?
<iamturnip> as for filing paper work..nov 9th?
 YES
 that is what i have been thinking about since wed
<fuzzybunny> not to ask a loaded q
 ...
<fuzzybunny> iamturnip: which?
<fuzzybunny> paperwork or deviant systems?
<iamturnip> both
<humble> well...
  i'm no stranger to deviant systems
<fuzzybunny> no doubt
 you have that aura
<iamturnip> and how to set up the rules for a board and staff
<fuzzybunny> for example
<iamturnip> but some kind of saefty guard in
<humble> but i'm kinda fpr efficiency and expediency vs. too much navel-gazing
<iamturnip> humble: I hear you on that
<fuzzybunny> true, but in some ways, satisfying the occupying power
isnʻt efficient either. it may be worth discussing making a
board/staff demarcation that is perhaps lip service to regulation
 rather than actually implemented
<humble> have you heard of Spiral Dynamics?
<iamturnip> i dont want to see a sit-in by the workers to get the
baord to change
<fuzzybunny> no but the name thrills me
<iamturnip> humble: no
<humble> (pet theory of mine at the moment)
<iamturnip> humble: lets hear it
<fuzzybunny> iamturnip: maybe a pyjama party
<fuzzybunny> the friendlier side of worker hardline
 yeah h
 humble:
 itʻs encrypted, give ʻer
<humble> it's a theory that tries to explain personal, organizational
and human evolution
<fuzzybunny> is there more?
<humble> permission to do a wikipedia dump??
<fuzzybunny> yes
 permission granted
<iamturnip> humble: sim has been talking to me about something similiar
<humble> Spiral Dynamics argues that human nature is not fixed: humans
are able, when forced by circumstances, to adapt to their environment
by constructing new, more complex, conceptual models of the world that
allow them to handle the new problems. Each new model includes and
transcends all previous models. According to Beck and Cowan, these
conceptual models are organized around so-called vMeme: systems of
core values or collective intelligences, applicable to both
 individuals and entire cultures.
  In spiral dynamics, the term "vMeme" refers to a core value system,
acting as an organizing principle, which expresses itself through
memes (self-propagating ideas, habits, or cultural practices). The
prepended and superscripted letter v indicates these are not basic
memes but value systems which include them.
* iamturnip nods
<humble> Spiral Dynamics is not a linear or hierarchical model. There
are infinite stages of progress and regression over time dependent
upon the life circumstances of the person/culture, which are
constantly in-flux. Similarly, attaining higher stages of development
is not synonomous with attaining a 'better' or 'more correct' values
system, although second-tier achievement is desirable. Each stage can
(co)-exist in both healthy and unhealthy states, whereby any stage
 of development can lead to undesirable outcomes with respect to the
health of the human and social environment.
* iamturnip only went as far as high school!
<humble> each level is nicely colour-coded so you can draw it using
ordinary crayons
 ;-)
* iamturnip likes what he reads though
<fuzzybunny> heh
* fuzzybunny agrees
<fuzzybunny> so letʻs apply taht
* iamturnip wonders how it applies to our situation, and wonders how
long he will talk in third person
<humble> the bl;ue level is all about law and order - ie. the
military, the law, the police is a good example of blue orgs
<fuzzybunny> humble: linkage please
<humble> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_dynamics
<iamturnip> humble: there is no pictures!!!
<fuzzybunny> iamturnip: add some
<humble> heh
<iamturnip> ok I am trying to follow along here
<fuzzybunny> scan your crayon drawings, i think theyʻre quite good
<humble> hold on... i have one handy
<fuzzybunny> i just about got mad
 i thought beige was "anarchic instinctive"
  heh
 so perhaps weʻre in orange
 & green
  & june will see us in second tier
 or rather
 weʻre not in orange
 but an institution might perceive us to be
<humble> well... if we're strongly opposed and think orange
(corporations) and blue (rules) must die then we're in green
 but we want to be in yellow - 2nd tier
<fuzzybunny> i find the era divisions distracting
 & contradictory
<humble> here's what characterizes a yellow org or individual:
<fuzzybunny> go on
<humble> When it is in charge, the person/group:
    1. is disinclined to spend much energy on perfunctory niceties
unless they are important to others present
    2. will not waste time on interpersonal gamesmanship or pointless
interpretations or contrived layers of meaning or semantic trivia
    3. values good content, clean information, open channels for
finding out more on their own terms, and an attitude of open
questioning and discovery
    4. favors appropriate technology, minimal consumption, and a
deliberate effort to avoid waste and clutter
    5. Has no need for status, exhibitionism, or displays of power
unless power is demanded by the Life Conditions
    6. enjoys human appetites but does not become a compulsive slave
to any of them
    7. is concerned with the long run of time rather than his or her
own life or those of other humans
    8. fully expresses anger, or even hostility, but the emotions are
intellectually used rather than emotionally driven or manipulatively
applied
    9. sees life as an up-and-down journey from problem to solution,
so both chaos and order are accepted as normal
   10. replaces anything artificial or contrived with spontaneity,
simplicity, and ethics that "make sense"
   11. seeks after a variety of interests and will elect to do what he
or she likes whether or not it is trendy, popular, or valued by others
   12. cannot be coerced, bribed, or intimidated since there is no
compulsion to control or desire to be controlled by others
   13. will run the gamut of being gentle or ruthless, a conformist or
nonconformist, based on the factors involved in a circumstance and the
overall interests of life itself
   14. locates his or her core motivation and evaluative systems
within his- or herself, thus becoming relatively immune to external
pressure or judgment.
* iamturnip is not a robot please slow down
<humble> note: Life Conditions is defined as: the conditions-without
which combine the historic times, physical place, psycho-social
existence problems, and socio-economic circumstances)
 sorry about all that
 just trying to give a quick rundown on how I try to guide myself
<fuzzybunny> yes
<iamturnip> i liek what i read
<fuzzybunny> i think weʻre all kinda on the same page right?
<iamturnip> well..we try
<fuzzybunny> yes
<humble> we can only try ;-)
<fuzzybunny> iʻm feeling like this is validating
--> jablko (~jablko at d207-6-195-230.bchsia.telus.net) has joined #freegeek
* iamturnip knew this was bigger than just gettign old computers and
doing shit with them
<fuzzybunny> not that iʻm concerned with concerned with othef value systems
  hey jablko !
 this is jack everyone
<iamturnip> jablko: Welcome Jack
<humble> hey jack!
<fuzzybunny> jack iʻm gonna send you what we been talking about
<humble> (it's scott)
<fuzzybunny> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_dynamics
* iamturnip is stepping away from the keyboard for a sec
<fuzzybunny> heh
 i was being ironic
 so humble
<jablko> hi guys
<fuzzybunny> hi jablko
 so humble
<humble> yes
<fuzzybunny> what i get from all this
 which is great stuff
 & iʻd like to spend some time
 esp on the pathologies
 sec
 humble: i take from this that you are amenable to radical departure
 when it comes from a poised core
  & is of real benefit to the propagation of FG
<humble> well... I'd say my history is sufficient to answer that question
<fuzzybunny> i guess i mean in relation to the question at hand
 i think we can do anything we want, & we should try to do the best thing
 iʻm a mystical pragmatist
 consensus makes for the best decisions, but also the most cosmically sensible
<humble> having been involved in many startups i know that there can
be a tendency to try to solve all the problems of the world in the
creation of one lil' old org
<fuzzybunny> heh
 yes
  thatʻs why when david suggested thinking about hte model of a
workersʻ collective, in order to influence the way the govt has it set
up
 i was skeptical
<humble> i think we all want to give others the experience that we had
when we heard of FreeGeek
<fuzzybunny> but iʻm all for having the reality be what we want
 well, my first experience was being there
 in a place that was packed with happy sweaty people
<humble> and you want to give that experience to otherss, right?
<fuzzybunny> where a lot of goodness burst out
 & then suddenly realizing
<iamturnip> a sense that something right in this world can happen is what i got
<fuzzybunny> that this place actually had a finer purpose than just joy
 or rather different types of joy, when the lights came on & we
started rolling out the workstations from the back room
 so give it to others yes
 give it to myself yes
 & so yes of course we should do the things that will make it happen
 which is why i think paperwork is paperwork
  people are peopel
 it is what we know it to be
<iamturnip> I am an action oriented person and so I am itchy to do
things..I have never been so feeling bogged down
<fuzzybunny> not what we register it as
<humble> so,,, the question is: what's the structure that will get us
there fastest
<iamturnip> humble: Yes
<fuzzybunny> iamturnip: i told you , make a list & you will feel better
<fuzzybunny> humble: and best
 remember that dictatorships are faster to operate under
<iamturnip> not bogged down by myself just the system and so that is
why I started takling about alt ways of starting this up
<fuzzybunny> faster bad & faster good
 ah
 i see
<iamturnip> maybe not realising that "that" would require more work
<fuzzybunny> but still, a list will help put it in context
 anyway
 humble:
  i can feel good about registering as a npsoc
  (sounds orwellian like that heh)
 as long as we are all open
<iamturnip> I have no problem either
<fuzzybunny> to having a symbolic board
<humble> heh... it's important to remember that we get to decdide how
it operates
<fuzzybunny> or at least discussing what taht would mean
 humble: exactly
<iamturnip> humble: yes I often overlook that point
<fuzzybunny> staff have been bending my ear
<humble> that will be the realkly interesting part - what bylaws we
craft between now and the AGM
<fuzzybunny> about a symbolic board
 humble: yes
<iamturnip> humble: that is what is currently going through my mind
 we could be *crafty*
<humble> well... there are boards that aren't that active in the day
to day of the org. for sure
<fuzzybunny> i mean, iʻve always been surprised at the segregation of
the ppl on the ground
  & the ppl making decisions
<humble> but they tend to be the more mainsteam ones (eg. United Way)
<iamturnip> good point
<fuzzybunny> like we could have a bunch of puppets sitting around a
table having an agm while we have a usual meeting in the next room
 we being the people who were active
 yes i mean real puppets
<humble> I've mostly worked with activist boards which like to get
their hands dirty
<fuzzybunny> yes, but that then makes a stress b/c theyʻre unpaid
 while others are paid
<iamturnip> may i say that I think most people that are interested do
want to get their hands dirty at least it seems to me
<fuzzybunny> for doing the same work
 dirty = good
* fuzzybunny likes dirty
<fuzzybunny> oh sorry, thot we were cybering
<humble> which is why i raised the idea of a worker's co-op that would
be eventually created by the Society
* fuzzybunny adjusts her collar
<fuzzybunny> aaanyway
 yes
 ah
  gmm
  hmm
 but then how would the coop relate to the society
 ?
<iamturnip> humble: i think we should concentrate our thought on the
startup while i like the idea of eventual spin offs
<fuzzybunny> this reminds me of pete & jablko sitting down the hall
from each other at their coop chatting on irc
<humble> agreed
<iamturnip> so can it be safely agreed that come thursday some paper
work is sub's?
<fuzzybunny> i guess my concern with that is that the board could
prevent that later, unless it was something that was intimated from
the start, or at least the idea of a symbolic board
<humble> sub? huh?
<fuzzybunny> submitted
<iamturnip> sorry
<humble> ahh
<iamturnip> submitted
<humble> wel... the board has to operate according to the bylaws
* iamturnip must slow down typing or get a keyboard that has letters on it
<humble> that's why our work between now and the AGM is so important
in depermining what we're really building here
<iamturnip> agreed
<fuzzybunny> ok
 humble: what role do you see yourself playing?
<iamturnip> by law number 1 - the board cannot interfer with the
workers... just kidding
<humble> i'm willing to run for a spot on the board
<iamturnip> humble: and that would be great
<humble> thnigs are usually great on the board when people get along
and there is no huge crisis to deal with
 board members are committed to the goals of the org, otherwise why
would they be there (they don't get paid)?
<fuzzybunny> i guess i just am uncomfortable with its very existance
 itʻs an imposed hierarchy from another imposed hierarchy
 & instead of operating organically, developing naturally as it should
<humble> we should pick and choose the hierarchies that we oppose
<fuzzybunny> we would need to work within alien confines
 humble: agreed
 i am
 .
 i donʻt like seeing 2 groups of people working
 who care equally about a project
 but one of them is compensated
<humble> well.. any legal structue incl. co-op can be fitted into your def.
<fuzzybunny> while the other controlls the resources
 yes
 to my objection you mean
 itʻs all case by case for me
<humble> well.. it's meant to precent conflict of interests in how the
money gets spent
 err... prevent
<fuzzybunny> & here is a case that i think creates inequities that iʻm
unhappy with
<iamturnip> fuzzybunny: how do you propose to work around a board?
<fuzzybunny> but why canʻt everyone decide that?
 i see that itʻs to prevent interdepartment fighting
 but still
 i donʻt see how that kind of territorialism applies
<iamturnip> humble: how could there be a conflict of interest with
money when its the workers(i mean that as paid people) who would have
trhe best interest in mind?
<fuzzybunny> we know that everyone involved will have the best intentions for FG
<humble> heh
<fuzzybunny> so with trust & love we strike out into the desert
<iamturnip> humble: maybe i am being naive?
<fuzzybunny> naivite is a form of strength when it has to do with
faith in your colleagues
 & openness
 e.g. if you trust ppl they usually rise to it
<humble> i agree that
<iamturnip> fuzzybunny: excellent point
<humble> that includes your board ;-)
<iamturnip> i knew that was coming
<humble> heh
 make that LOL
<fuzzybunny> sec
* fuzzybunny cracking a beer
<fuzzybunny> so yes but the board is an alien
 it sets people apart
<iamturnip> an alien that we can control through the bylaws humble?
<fuzzybunny> thatʻs how resentment starts
 & politicking
 fear is what hurts consensus the most
 sec
<humble> but any member in good standing can run for a spot on the board
<iamturnip> i feel like we are a big loader stuck i the mud...
<fuzzybunny> i still have heard no convincing reasons for having a board
<iamturnip> its the law..so we have to find away to work aroudn it
<fuzzybunny> since we can trust them not to have a conflict of
interest, their raison dʻetre disapprears
<fuzzybunny> iamturnip:
<iamturnip> i'm not convivnced we need a board either f.bunny
<fuzzybunny> law is fine, law is paper tiger
 not referring to that
 we do what we need to vis a vis govʻt deskjockeys
 humble:
 i had a great convo with graham, from spartacus
 he said
<humble> there are advantages to a board
<fuzzybunny> "
 if you have an ecology of equally empowered people, they
automatically find consensus"
<iamturnip> lets hear these advantages
 to be fair
<fuzzybunny> messing wiht that makes consensus wobbly
<humble> we don't have to call it a board - at least within the org. itself
<fuzzybunny> humble:
 sean says hi
 (from the meeting)
 heʻs come over with beer
 humble: so what are the advantages?
 iʻm curious
<humble> well... one is that you involve people who have skill useful
to the org. - eg. accountants, laawyers, etc.
<fuzzybunny> btw iʻm making a call now, so iʻl be out for a bit
<humble> and get their skills for free
 hi to sean!
--- fuzzybunny is now known as sean
<iamturnip> free skills is good
 I can see ifny point however
 I am uncomfy with the separation of workers and board
 but I am willing to work with the idea through a well made set of by laws
<humble> well... you can get somewhat around the seperation of board
and staff with a co-op
 I've only been part of forming one co-op and it didn't work out
<iamturnip> are you suggesting we move to a co-op?
 err x that out cause you have made your intentions known
<humble> no... I think it would take much longer and be a lot more work
<iamturnip> agreed
<humble> but i also don't want FG held hostage to what I think
<iamturnip> and its not
<humble> I'm comfortable with waiting until after a Portland
fact-finding mission to file the papers
<iamturnip> hang on sim is giving his two cents over the phone to me
 good lord
<humble> heh
<iamturnip> sim says - if everyone wants equal power will they also
accept equal liability?
<sean> that is a good point
<humble> it is a good point
 if we want to make educating people about a different way of
structuring organizations central to our missions, then co-op is a
good choice
<iamturnip> thats not the freegeek mission though we must keep that in mind
<humble> if we just want to start bulding computers and installing
Linux then society is the best choice
 the point about liability is worth a bit more examination tho
<iamturnip> simeon is coming live from YVR
<humble> is he at work on the Canada line, atm?
<iamturnip> yup
<sean> to interject somewhat, having a legal identity gains many
advants, plus we can make stipulations on the actions of the brd in
the charter, including decision powers etc. it is allot of work but at
the same time such would add to future entities other people form. It
still comes down so much to those in it.
<humble> agree
<iamturnip> true
<humble> other entities understand societies - we don't have nearly as
much explaning to do when we sign a lease, get a bank account, etc
<iamturnip> sorry sim is just telling me lots of stuff...taking notes
<humble> that gets back to whether or not educating other on a
different way of doing things is central to our mission
<iamturnip> i dont think it is
<humble> i feel we'll have enough explaning to do vis a vis software licencing
<sean> itʻs incidental but could be payed attention to for this reason
<humble> sean: say more...
<sean> how much time would we be willing to spend on such matters
<humble> you mean on explaining that we're a non-prrofit workers co-op
rather than a society?
<sean> this all gets very involved but it seems some of the people who
we know are so versed in such dealings
<iamturnip> sim would like to open a small can of worms
 more a thought than anything
<humble> yay!
<iamturnip> open source is not a consensus based model
 booya!
<humble> i believe the original quote called it "rough consensus"
 hold on...
<iamturnip> the kernel is ok'd linus torvalis himself..a legitimate
authority in the most anarchist sense
 same as the python code is ya or nah by guido von russum
 peopel are more than able to fork off but that doesnt really happen
<humble> "We reject kings, presidents and voting. We believe in rough
consensus and running code." Clark.
<iamturnip> clark who?
 sim would like to know and what project is that refering too
<humble> hmm...
 it's from the Internet Engineering Task Force
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus
<iamturnip> wow this is exciting!  I love it
<humble> Within the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), the
concept of "rough consensus and running code" is the basis for the
standardization process. It has proven extremely effective for
standardizing protocols for inter-computer communication, particularly
during its early years.
 still looking for "Clark"...
<iamturnip> sim "yest hat is different than writing code however,
forming a standard is different than writting code"
<humble> Internet historians recognize the technical achievements but often
 overlook the bureaucratic innovations of Internet pioneers. The
 phrase, "We reject: kings, presidents, and voting. We believe in:
 rough consensus and running code," was coined by David Clark in
 1992.
 source: http://www.computer.org/portal/cms_docs_annals/annals/content/promo2.pdf
 what else from Sim?
<iamturnip> well he says
<humble> (sorry to dominate with my paste 'n' cutism)
<sean> "if we just want to start bulding computers and installing
Linux then society is the best choice"
<iamturnip> " linus does not equal a king he has no power of
coercion(bad spelling i know), his power comes from being right, and
people listen"
<sean> but that is not what freegeek is only
--- sean is now known as ifny
<ifny> sorry
 iʻm back
 catchign up
 open source is consensus based but in a time lagged sense
 one might say
<iamturnip> sim "what does that mean"
<ifny> since it flows like water in the same way
<humble> have you been smoking up?
<ifny> it adapts depending on the situation, according to the
participantsʻs needs
 humble:
 heh
<humble> heh
<ifny> told you iʻm a metaphysician
 iʻm here to heal thy ills
 if we say
 that consensus is essentially
 volunatary decisions by voluntary participants
 then open source is still in the game
 BOOM
 as far as liability goes
 if we create a board (artificial demarcation of power)
 then that board is liable for the actions of others
 we create a environment where fear becomes even more likely
 a result
 no wonder boards freak out the way that they do
<iamturnip> sim says "while it is true that in software as larry wall
says, that there is more then one way to do it, it is alaso true that
there is typically one best way to solve a paticular problem, and that
way is most apparent and obvious to that person who has the deepest
understanding and the most experience with the system in question"
<ifny> (not inevitable, but certainly stacked)
 so should the people be resp for their decisions?
 YES
<iamturnip> sim says the railtry is someone is still going to be liable
<ifny> we should all make the decisions, & all be resp for them
<iamturnip> reaility
<ifny> yes
<iamturnip> sorry
 sim "its a question of who gets sued"
<humble> the devil's in the details as we all know
<ifny> why should the board members be resp for the actions of the staff??
 because they wield power over them
 no denying it
 gross
 they have to control staff for selfish reasons
 grosser
<humble> but you're taking the "glass half full" view
<ifny> staff are doing the real work, yet are feared by their masters
 humble:
 humble:
 oops
 but thatʻs the implication of having a board & a staff!
 iʻm just following the logic
 seems to me anyway
 a board is created because of mistrust
 & that mistrust propagates itself
<humble> no.. a board is created to get things done
<iamturnip> I can see your point humble
<ifny> sorry, how is a board more effective than the ppl on the ground??
<humble> comprised of people who believe in the purpose of the
organization so much that they volnteer their time and energy to see
that it is a success
<ifny> just to clarify
 i could care less what we do to satisfy the reqʻs to become a nonprof
 iʻm concerned with what we actually do
 humble:
 of course, everybody cares
 & people donʻt have to get paid
<humble> then this belongs in crafting out bylaws
<ifny> yeah, iʻd agree withthat
<humble> what do you mean by "i could care less what we do to satisfy
the reqʻs to become a nonprof"?
<ifny> well, iʻm concerned with the realpolitik
 not an imposed system
 i donʻt mind working within systems
 iʻm not a pyrhrric kinda gal
 i just want there to be dialogue about this
 i mean,
 i donʻt mind being liable for FG
<iamturnip> we need to get sean a lapdog right now
<ifny> heh
<humble> lapdog?
<iamturnip> laptop
<humble> ahh... i'm getting tired 'cause I'm starting to lose focus
<ifny> eyah
<humble> calliing a laptop a lapdog doesn't help - but it's amusing!
 is sim still on the line?
<ifny> everything helps
 humble:
 no
 so can we agree that this is a big exciting topic
<humble> perhaps we can discuss this more tomorrow night
<iamturnip> humble: sorry just a inside joke that i forget about
sometimes that people dont know
<ifny> tomorrow night?
<humble> yeah... invite the whole list
<ifny> good idea
<iamturnip> humble: i was just sayingthat sean is telling me some
great things but he is not infront of a computer to put it doewn
<ifny> but it takes a long time
<humble> i am delivering a lecture at Kwantlen until about 8pm
<iamturnip> he is sharing a laptop with ifny and I was hoping to get
my otherl aptop running so hecould join in that is all
<ifny> ok
<iamturnip> humble: are you frustrated or tired?

<humble> actually... my housemate just came home and i haven't seen
her since last week
<ifny> k weʻll let you go
 we can call the meeting
 donʻt worry
<iamturnip> humble: i hope we can continue this at a later date
<ifny> & is it ok if this is included
 (a transcript i mean?)
<humble> yeah... tomorrow - same place - ie. here???
<ifny> (to the mailing list)
 <ifny> & is 8:30ok?
<iamturnip> humble: as usual it was excellent to talk to you...my mind
is churning over alot
<ifny> humble: ok
 yeah humble
 you rock
 sorry to put boards through the ringer
<humble> thank you folks.. sorry to drop so much stuff in there
<humble> well... if it's any consolation indymedia has never had a board
<ifny> is it ok to post this chat to the mailing list?
 humble: i donʻt need succor, just chocolate & revolution
 ok & maybe cuddling
 it might make me nicer
<humble> posting is fine by me
<ifny> ok